Strip Destiny Church from tax free status

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Forums › Finance and wealth management › Strip Destiny Church from tax free status

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#1674736 20-Nov-2016 23:50

Personally I am not at all sure why religion is deserving of special freedom in 2016, an age that should be defined by science and reason rather than entirely unproven doctrine that in some cases is quite patently nonsense.

JMO of course, but according it any more special status in life than New World or Bunnings Warehouse (be it for tax or any other purpose) just makes absolutely no sense to me. It belongs in a time of Oliver Cromwell and so on, not an age of iPhones, Hubble and Mars rovers.

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PhantomNVD

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#1674738 20-Nov-2016 23:52

While I agree they "abuse the system" technically the organisation could be not for profit even if they pay their "CEO" a massive pay check. It's not the organisation making the profit, it's the individual?

PhantomNVD

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#1674740 21-Nov-2016 00:05

Geektastic:
Personally I am not at all sure why religion is deserving of special freedom in 2016, an age that should be defined by science and reason rather than entirely unproven doctrine that in some cases is quite patently nonsense.

JMO of course, but according it any more special status in life than New World or Bunnings Warehouse (be it for tax or any other purpose) just makes absolutely no sense to me. It belongs in a time of Oliver Cromwell and so on, not an age of iPhones, Hubble and Mars rovers.

And yet a lot of "Science" IS religion (by definition) as in many cases it's based on faith in scientific theories.
Much of it IS proveable (and reproduceable) but much is also 'current best guess' theorisation, and Science is, and MUST always be, open to correction as very few things are irrefutable and new information consistently arises and changes the basis in which the facts are interpreted.

The flat earth theory was a worldwide "FACT" for most of history, and likely totally uncontestable in scientific circles, but still turned out to be patently rediculous in the end.

Practically every government on the planet pours a huge amount of its money into "Scientific Research" which is often later changed and refuted... but (almost) nobody would object to their decision to continue to support this either?

Fact is, only elected government official (in this country anyway) get to make the choices on where the tax money is spent, and I'd say churches (on the whole) are decidedly more efficient with their money than the beaurocratic policy makers...

tdgeek

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#1674756 21-Nov-2016 07:09

Geektastic:

Personally I am not at all sure why religion is deserving of special freedom in 2016, an age that should be defined by science and reason rather than entirely unproven doctrine that in some cases is quite patently nonsense.

JMO of course, but according it any more special status in life than New World or Bunnings Warehouse (be it for tax or any other purpose) just makes absolutely no sense to me. It belongs in a time of Oliver Cromwell and so on, not an age of iPhones, Hubble and Mars rovers.

I agree. To me ist about charity, does the religion or any other group that is not for profit, distribute its net income to charitable causes? If so, that that should be tax free. If not, it should not be tax free. Destiny to me, is akin to Brian Tamaki Industries Inc.

Geektastic

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#1674794 21-Nov-2016 09:44

PhantomNVD:
Geektastic:

Personally I am not at all sure why religion is deserving of special freedom in 2016, an age that should be defined by science and reason rather than entirely unproven doctrine that in some cases is quite patently nonsense.

JMO of course, but according it any more special status in life than New World or Bunnings Warehouse (be it for tax or any other purpose) just makes absolutely no sense to me. It belongs in a time of Oliver Cromwell and so on, not an age of iPhones, Hubble and Mars rovers.

And yet a lot of "Science" IS religion (by definition) as in many cases it's based on faith in scientific theories.
Much of it IS proveable (and reproduceable) but much is also 'current best guess' theorisation, and Science is, and MUST always be, open to correction as very few things are irrefutable and new information consistently arises and changes the basis in which the facts are interpreted.

The flat earth theory was a worldwide "FACT" for most of history, and likely totally uncontestable in scientific circles, but still turned out to be patently rediculous in the end.

Practically every government on the planet pours a huge amount of its money into "Scientific Research" which is often later changed and refuted... but (almost) nobody would object to their decision to continue to support this either?

Fact is, only elected government official (in this country anyway) get to make the choices on where the tax money is spent, and I'd say churches (on the whole) are decidedly more efficient with their money than the beaurocratic policy makers...

You've highlighted the difference between science and religion quite clearly. (ignoring that one deals with reality and the other with fantasy, of course)

Science actively tries to test it's assertions and is very happy to change the view when something is disproved.

Religion does not and is not.

MikeB4

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#1674801 21-Nov-2016 10:11

With regards to the tax exemption, folks need to get away from the faith aspect. If you are not religious fine, that is your decision to keep to yourself. Now the tax thing, charities get a tax exemption due to the non profit work they do for the community. The main guide to deciding the exemption continuation should be based on the charity actions.

Some here have put forward the notion of a blanket removal of the exemption so where would that leave the likes of the Salvation Army, the homes of Compassion etc If you are going to remove the exemptions just on the church based charities you are embarking down a slippery slope, what would be next, removal of exemptions for other charities like Red Cross, CCS, IHC, SPCA?

With regards to Destiny, review their activities with regard to the exemption, if their charitable works meet the legislative requirements then leave it there. Get the appropriate authority to review Tamaki's actions and words to see if any breach of the law has occurred.

Geektastic

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#1674802 21-Nov-2016 10:18

MikeB4:

With regards to the tax exemption, folks need to get away from the faith aspect. If you are not religious fine, that is your decision to keep to yourself. Now the tax thing, charities get a tax exemption due to the non profit work they do for the community. The main guide to deciding the exemption continuation should be based on the charity actions.

Some here have put forward the notion of a blanket removal of the exemption so where would that leave the likes of the Salvation Army, the homes of Compassion etc If you are going to remove the exemptions just on the church based charities you are embarking down a slippery slope, what would be next, removal of exemptions for other charities like Red Cross, CCS, IHC, SPCA?

With regards to Destiny, review their activities with regard to the exemption, if their charitable works meet the legislative requirements then leave it there. Get the appropriate authority to review Tamaki's actions and words to see if any breach of the law has occurred.

I'd go a step further and say that charities cannot be religious and must be secular.

dafman

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#1674803 21-Nov-2016 10:19

MikeB4:
sxz:
Geektastic:

sxz:

If churches wanted to do good they would pay tax.

I'm not sure the government is always the most effective spender of other people's earnings to be honest.

A country can't run without income. I pay my tax, I'm sure you do too. So do businesses. Why shouldn't a church? I'd love to be able to choose where and how my tax money is spent, but I can't. What makes a church so special?

Anyway, they would only be paying a portion of their income on tax, they would still get to send the best majority wherever they want.

It's an outdated law for outdated ideals

You response does not address the extensive charity work they do.

Lots of organisations and individuals other than 'churches' do extensive charity work. And they pay tax as well!

geocom

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#1674820 21-Nov-2016 10:32

If the church is truly serious about there message then why do the need money in the first place. If the pastor is truly serious about their message then they must be willing to do it for free.

If they lose there charity status what changes. Nothing. If they truly are making nothing then the tax payable is next to nothing.

If they separate the church and the charitable work they do then its more likey that people who do not want religion to play any part in what they support are more likely to donate.

If they truly believe in helping people then they will leave their religious ideals at the door.

Geoff E

Pumpedd

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#1674822 21-Nov-2016 10:33

There is an organisation independent of the Government who determines what is a charity and then reviews them on a regular basis. I believe its called the Charities Commission.

Each charity is required to submit annual returns and is subject to audit conditions.

IMO Sanitarium would be the most dubious chairity we have.

geocom

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#1674823 21-Nov-2016 10:34

Pumpedd:

There is an organisation independent of the Government who determines what is a charity and then reviews them on a regular basis. I believe its called the Charities Commission.

Each charity is required to submit annual returns and is subject to audit conditions.

IMO Sanitarium would be the most dubious chairity we have.

No there are 2 different laws the one your thinking of is entirely optional and was only introduced in 2005.

Charitable Trusts Act 1957

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1957/0018/latest/DLM308796.html?src=qs

Charities Act 2005

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2005/0039/latest/DLM344368.html?src=qs

Geoff E

MikeAqua

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#1674827 21-Nov-2016 10:45

I see tax exemption as a subsidy from government.

I'd happily see taxable charity stripped from any charity that engages homophobia, racism, sexism etc. I don't want govt to subsidise this behaviour.

Whoever you are if you repeatedly make derogatory statements about whole groups of people, you risk charitable status.

Organisation would be free to continue with their freedom of speech, they would just have to pay tax.

Mike

Pumpedd

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#1674884 21-Nov-2016 11:27

MikeAqua:

I see tax exemption as a subsidy from government.

I'd happily see taxable charity stripped from any charity that engages homophobia, racism, sexism etc. I don't want govt to subsidise this behaviour.

Whoever you are if you repeatedly make derogatory statements about whole groups of people, you risk charitable status.

Organisation would be free to continue with their freedom of speech, they would just have to pay tax.

I agree...there should be rules governing behaviour.

NonprayingMantis

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#1674900 21-Nov-2016 11:50

dumb question time:

If churches (and other charities) are non-profit entities, and corporate tax is only levied on profits, then why do they need special 'tax exempt' status. Surely as long as they make no profit they will pay no tax regardless.

If they do make a profit, then they shouldn't have a status of 'non-profit'.

so why have a special status? Either they make profit, in which case they should be taxed. Or they don't make profit, in which case they wouldn't pay tax anyway.

tdgeek

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#1674901 21-Nov-2016 11:55

NonprayingMantis:

dumb question time:

If churches (and other charities) are non-profit entities, and corporate tax is only levied on profits, then why do they need special 'tax exempt' status. Surely as long as they make no profit they will pay no tax regardless.

If they do make a profit, then they shouldn't have a status of 'non-profit'.

so why have a special status? Either they make profit, in which case they should be taxed. Or they don't make profit, in which case they wouldn't pay tax anyway.

if their profit, or excess of income over expenditure will be used for charitable purposes. As such, funds that have not yet been given to charities, or expended to worthy causes , basically a timing issue

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