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Zeon
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  #2855907 24-Jan-2022 23:37
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As literally the makers of technology that does this, I can say the ability to take a PDF bank statement and extract line-by-line and categorise the information is extremely easy and probably way cheaper than the Illion offering....





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michaelmurfy
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  #2855908 24-Jan-2022 23:40
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nzkc:

 

They've literally had years to implement something - even just a read only login. TBH: I have no sympathy for them.

 

This is actually a business product already with most banks - it isn't enabled for consumers most of the time because there is an actual security risk and support aspect behind it.

 

But also you don't have an understanding of what it takes to create something that is secure that any customer can use, that doesn't lower their security. Customers are seen as a security risk basically, many reuse passwords, many may have malware on their device etc so just creating an API like you state is actually way, way more difficult then you're implying it to be. You don't want to open up a customer to any more risk outside of their internet banking and a customer wouldn't understand what an API actually is. If done incorrectly this can open up a customer to more risk.

 

You also can't compare banks in New Zealand with the megabanks over in the UK or even Australia. There is also another issue that comes to play especially for the Aussie banks and that is the BS11 Outsourcing Policy basically forcing them to disconnect all their technology from their sponsor banks and this itself is a huge, huge task with some banks here even sharing banking cores with their Aussie sponsors.

 

So while you say you have no symphony you have to understand that Open Banking has been a thing being worked on for years now, mainframes and banking cores are not designed to simply have API's open to the public so a whole layer has to be built, it has to be secure, built to an open standard and still has to have protections in place to protect the most vulnerable customers and the bank. We've got a global pandemic that is making it harder to get workers, especially from overseas who specialize in this sort of thing and because of BS11 banks can't outsource this work to their sponsor banks overseas.

 

There is also a whole other part of this. Companies like POLi, Account2account and even Illion Bankstatements can actually reach out to a bank right now, play a fee and have the bank build something secure for them on the Open Banking API standard as most banks do have something available but instead these companies would much rather put you at risk by scraping these platforms as they please (they often change what they scrape too and collect further data where a strict bank API will prevent this happening). There are already integrations out there using Open Banking API's for example Spark + ANZ goMoney.

 

There is a reason for everything... But just because you don't see Open Banking API's doesn't mean they actually don't exist, they're coming along quite nicely with many banks.





Michael Murphy | https://murfy.nz | https://keybase.io/michaelmurfy - Referral Links: Sharesies | Electric Kiwi
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nzkc
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  #2855922 25-Jan-2022 07:25
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michaelmurfy:

 

But also you don't have an understanding of what it takes to create something that is secure that any customer can use, that doesn't lower their security.

 

 

You make some rash assumptions about me. I have worked at a couple of NZ banks. I write APIs today. I perhaps know a lot more than you assume.

 

My opinion stands: much of this lies at the feet of banks having been too slow and unwilling to offer a service that allows this.




itxtme
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  #2855934 25-Jan-2022 08:34
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michaelmurfy:

 

There is also a whole other part of this. Companies like POLi, Account2account and even Illion Bankstatements can actually reach out to a bank right now, play a fee and have the bank build something secure for them on the Open Banking API standard as most banks do have something available but instead these companies would much rather put you at risk by scraping these platforms as they please (they often change what they scrape too and collect further data where a strict bank API will prevent this happening). There are already integrations out there using Open Banking API's for example Spark + ANZ goMoney.

 

 

What are the costs involved in something like this?  Obviously all would be separate, so one would need to go to all banks separately to achieve something like this, and even then each banks would be different.  As a developer the only conversation I have had with one of the big banks about open banking insinuated that it was lip service and not something they were perusing with vigour - he thought it was funny.  That was two years ago by the way..

 

The facts remain

 

- This has been talked about for 10 years+
- The only thing that made banks move was government statements insinuating it would be regulated if not started
- Banks have a vested interest in not being open, the reality is they make more money when they keep 3rd party players out of the market
- You know and I know it can be done in a timely manner but the banks have no desire to rush into doing so, and so development teams are obviously small.  Kicking the can down the road another year does not make something more secure, developing it does
- Banks in NZ have a history of not walking the walk, hence the Credit Card merchant fees now being looked at

 

 


michaelmurfy
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  #2856037 25-Jan-2022 11:22
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nzkc:

 

You make some rash assumptions about me. I have worked at a couple of NZ banks. I write APIs today. I perhaps know a lot more than you assume.

 

SQL at a bank is a little different from setting up public API's at a bank especially seeing real money is involved ;) - I've also been in the banking industry for years now working with open banking also. I do fully agree with your argument however with banks taking their time but I also know a little more around this which is what I posted above.

 

itxtme:

 

What are the costs involved in something like this?  Obviously all would be separate, so one would need to go to all banks separately to achieve something like this, and even then each banks would be different.  As a developer the only conversation I have had with one of the big banks about open banking insinuated that it was lip service and not something they were perusing with vigour - he thought it was funny.  That was two years ago by the way..

 

For the previous bank I worked at (ANZ) open banking has really only been a "private beta" offer since last year but they do have a large team working on this (and it is being worked on with priority). Banks HATE screen scrapers and the push from security is to work on a solution to put a stop to screen scraping (note - if banks block scrapers from the WAF you can imagine the complaints. We even got complaints from one of the scraping companies themselves!). Being a private beta type offering at a guess the costs will be high but I think there was something worked out with Spark (as everyone knows, Spark is a customer of ANZ).

 

The facts remain

 

- This has been talked about for 10 years+
- The only thing that made banks move was government statements insinuating it would be regulated if not started
- Banks have a vested interest in not being open, the reality is they make more money when they keep 3rd party players out of the market
- You know and I know it can be done in a timely manner but the banks have no desire to rush into doing so, and so development teams are obviously small.  Kicking the can down the road another year does not make something more secure, developing it does
- Banks in NZ have a history of not walking the walk, hence the Credit Card merchant fees now being looked at

 

Again, fully agree with you except for point 4 because I know it is being worked on at priority and has been for some years now. Like I say, it is seriously happening but you also know I can't share juicy details even of my previous employer to why this isn't a public offering yet. I've somewhat touched on this above though.





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antonknee
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  #2856059 25-Jan-2022 12:28
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michaelmurfy:

 

You also can't compare banks in New Zealand with the megabanks over in the UK or even Australia. There is also another issue that comes to play especially for the Aussie banks and that is the BS11 Outsourcing Policy basically forcing them to disconnect all their technology from their sponsor banks and this itself is a huge, huge task with some banks here even sharing banking cores with their Aussie sponsors.

 

 

Veering off topic, but this is legitimately a shame in some ways. Thinking specifically of ANZx and the work that's come out of that (ANZ Plus for Australia) which is a fantastic concept (incidentally matches exactly how I manage my money and I'd sign up to this in a heartbeat) and great product that I imagine will not surface here in NZ as a result of this requirement.


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