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Kyanar
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  #525693 26-Sep-2011 09:31
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oxnsox:
PenultimateHop: 
Actually merchants aren't permitted to ask for additional ID even if you write that on the signature area. They're required to ask you to sign the card properly (or sign the receipt with "See ID" or whatever). Visa and MasterCard have repeatedly told people not to do this.

Oddly enough t was Mastercard who recommended me to do this some years ago after my card number was used fraudulently.

My view is that a signature does not verify my identity.  Anyone can copy  a signature, but who is going to want to copy your face?  In reality a PIN is not much more secure than a signature.


Was it actually MasterCard, or a low level customer service peon at your bank?  Because I can't imagine MasterCard telling you to do something that puts every merchant who does business with you in violation of their merchant agreement (trust me - it's in there.  Card says "See ID" or doesn't have signature, then no sale). 

PenultimateHop
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  #525716 26-Sep-2011 10:36
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Kyanar: Was it actually MasterCard, or a low level customer service peon at your bank?  Because I can't imagine MasterCard telling you to do something that puts every merchant who does business with you in violation of their merchant agreement (trust me - it's in there.  Card says "See ID" or doesn't have signature, then no sale). 

+1

I also find it very strange that MasterCard (or even a bank) would recommend this. For as long as I've seen people doing this practice, I've seen literature from MC/VI/AX telling people not to do it. Unless "See ID" is actually their signature.

 
 
 
 


freitasm
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  #525847 26-Sep-2011 15:30
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http://www.scmagazine.com.au/News/274594,40000-small-businesses-at-risk-of-fraud.aspx


The most at-risk cases were businesses like independent supermarket chains, clubs and restaurants that processed Point of Sale (PoS) credit card and Eftpos transactions through backroom servers in batches.

Those so-called integrated PoS systems were favourites of fraudsters because they were scarcely or never updated and patched yet had internet access and were easy to crack.




A concurrent effort by PCI DSS card holders would see the end of magnetic stripe bank cards, replaced with the more secure chip and PIN system.

Cardholders say the chip – a gold square on the face of bank cards – dramatically reduces the amount of information available to fraudsters and cannot be replicated.

However magnetic stripe card data could be stolen to reproduce cards and was the number one method of defrauding US level four merchants.

All terminals that process Visa payments will be chip-enabled by April next year. All Visa cards will be chipped and customers provided with a PIN number which will see signatures abolished 12 months later.

 

 
 




 

 

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PenultimateHop
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  #525852 26-Sep-2011 15:35
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freitasm: http://www.scmagazine.com.au/News/274594,40000-small-businesses-at-risk-of-fraud.aspx


All terminals that process Visa payments will be chip-enabled by April next year. All Visa cards will be chipped and customers provided with a PIN number which will see signatures abolished 12 months later.

Not if they want any US business they won't. Not only is chip+PIN practically non-existent in the US at the moment, the one or two banks that are introducing it on a trial basis are introducing it as chip+signature not chip+PIN. My Asian credit cards (HK/SG) are also chip+signature.

My personal continued bugbear is hotels that still don't have card number masking on their terminals. Of 10 recent hotel stays, 8 still printed the complete card number and expiry on the POS receipt. Very bad.

richms
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  #525855 26-Sep-2011 15:37
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Till this crap is sorted you really need a whole stack of cards that you are ready to go when they are compromised. The slow pace of resolution of credit card insecurities just shows that the banks dont give a toss about it, so why should their customers?




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PenultimateHop
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  #525857 26-Sep-2011 15:40
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richms: Till this crap is sorted you really need a whole stack of cards that you are ready to go when they are compromised. The slow pace of resolution of credit card insecurities just shows that the banks dont give a toss about it, so why should their customers?

Yes - I travel with several redundant cards - different networks, issuers, currencies, just in case I'm ever caught in an issue with them. Fortunately that hasn't happened.

The fraud issue is clearly just a cost/benefit issue for the banks -- if it costs more to implement a new technology (such as chip+PIN) than the annual cost of fraud, they won't bother doing it.

Behodar
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  #525867 26-Sep-2011 15:52
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In NZ I use stripe and PIN (EFTPOS) for my purchases. I went to England last year and checked my bank's documentation before leaving, and it said that my card would work in England.

Well, that's right... if you could find somewhere with a stripe reader. Maybe 2/3 of the shops that I went to were unable to read a magnetic card and required a chip. For the ones that could take it, none asked for my PIN; all wanted my signature.

It seems that the system is different depending on where you go so it could be difficult to make a "one size fits all" solution.

 
 
 
 


PenultimateHop
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  #525871 26-Sep-2011 15:56
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Behodar: Well, that's right... if you could find somewhere with a stripe reader. Maybe 2/3 of the shops that I went to were unable to read a magnetic card and required a chip. For the ones that could take it, none asked for my PIN; all wanted my signature.

I'm surprised you had such significant problems in the UK. I was there last week and had no problems with my chipless cards (amex, visa, mastercard). Outside of a few kiosks I haven't found a place that couldn't process a mag stripe card... certainly anywhere that has tourists or business travelers nearby will accept them, since the US is stripe-only for their cards.

StarBlazer
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  #525875 26-Sep-2011 15:59
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Behodar: In NZ I use stripe and PIN (EFTPOS) for my purchases. I went to England last year and checked my bank's documentation before leaving, and it said that my card would work in England.

Well, that's right... if you could find somewhere with a stripe reader. Maybe 2/3 of the shops that I went to were unable to read a magnetic card and required a chip. For the ones that could take it, none asked for my PIN; all wanted my signature.

It seems that the system is different depending on where you go so it could be difficult to make a "one size fits all" solution.


That's about right for the UK.  My UK VisaDebit and Credit cards have chip and magnetic stripe.  In the UK (even 5+ years ago) majority of terminals were chip and pin.  When I got to NZ and was still using my UK cards I would have to go through a ritual of; swipe - please insert chip, insert chip - not valid please swipe, swipe again and then sign!!  I was so glad when I picked up my eftpos and Mastercard from Westpac.

To complicate matters even further, individual retail outlets in NZ (and probably elsewhere in the world) have their own cards with their own technology for reading and authorising payment.  A friend of mine works for a fuel chain and had they had to spend $$$$ for their own payment cards - because they had rules that were not compatible with the clearing houses!





Procrastination eventually pays off.


oxnsox
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  #525910 26-Sep-2011 17:33
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PenultimateHop:
Kyanar: Was it actually MasterCard, or a low level customer service peon at your bank?  Because I can't imagine MasterCard telling you to do something that puts every merchant who does business with you in violation of their merchant agreement (trust me - it's in there.  Card says "See ID" or doesn't have signature, then no sale). 

+1
I also find it very strange that MasterCard (or even a bank) would recommend this. For as long as I've seen people doing this practice, I've seen literature from MC/VI/AX telling people not to do it. Unless "See ID" is actually their signature.

This was from the person in the card center (in NZ) that called to advise my card had been used fraudulently. After travelling and working in Spain, where your ID card (with photo) must be used to verify the user for any CC transaction it wasn't hard to adapt to.


But back to embedded NFC. We've gone from written paper cheques , to paperless Credit-cards (sign, then pin), to chipped credit cards, to NFC (and chipped) cards.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with the NFC implementation... it's a technology many of us have in the access passes we've been using for many years.
 
The issue seems to be around consumer acceptance (or reluctance) of the $80 limit for no user authentication. And it appears the banks are prepared to accept that liability. They certainly aren't going to let you 'loose' your card repeatedly every pub night......

PenultimateHop
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  #526037 27-Sep-2011 06:25
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oxnsox: This was from the person in the card center (in NZ) that called to advise my card had been used fraudulently. After travelling and working in Spain, where your ID card (with photo) must be used to verify the user for any CC transaction it wasn't hard to adapt to.

That would have been your bank, surely.

oxnsox:
The issue seems to be around consumer acceptance (or reluctance) of the $80 limit for no user authentication. And it appears the banks are prepared to accept that liability. They certainly aren't going to let you 'loose' your card repeatedly every pub night......

Indeed. It doesn't bother me at all. I've had NFC credit cards for a couple of years, and other than a few attempts at using it after I got the cards and finally found a merchant that supported it, I've not bothered with it. And have had zero fraud from it.

nate
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  #526380 27-Sep-2011 17:57
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We've just had one of the readers installed, pictured below if you haven't seen one.

 

openmedia

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  #526392 27-Sep-2011 18:17
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nate: We've just had one of the readers installed, pictured below if you haven't seen one.

 


So can a customer choose not to use paypass?




Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC a Technology Evangelist and Product Manager. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.


nate
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  #526507 27-Sep-2011 22:01
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openmedia:
nate: We've just had one of the readers installed, pictured below if you haven't seen one.

 


So can a customer choose not to use paypass?


Yes - ours is paired off our existing eftpos unit.  When it pops up asking for Cheque or Savings, you scan your card and the transaction is complete

(this is what I've been told, I don't have one of the compatible cards yet) 

Kyanar
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  #526569 28-Sep-2011 01:54
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Interesting - it looks virtually identical to a Snapper reader which is the same basic technology - can that terminal read Snapper cards with the appropriate merchant setup?

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