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41 posts

Geek


  Reply # 885731 28-Aug-2013 10:05
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Dunnersfella: I'd agree that the ST is acres ahead of the S60, but the OP was looking for non-3D, non-smart etc... and that's my pick in the current range of 2013 plasma TV's that fits the bill.
The 42" LED's are another option of course, I'd put the 6620 from LG next to the ET60 from Panasonic and make your decision based on the picture...


Well, as it turned out, you really know your TVs :) I went and bought one last Sunday at Harvey Norman's 3 day sale.

Before I get to that, I'd like to share some major points of my research, which may be useful to others, as this is the valuable information TV manufacturers hide, and retailers know nothing about.
You can also follow my train of thought as I was finding things out, in an email to my friend I'll paste bellow:

"I'm 100% positive now I'll be getting plasma and this model in particular, which is funny enough cheaper than those high spec LCDs: http://www.harveynorman.co.nz/panasonic-50-full-hd-smart-plasma-tv.html

1. http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/the-best-t-vs-for-gaming.452826627/
First I ran into this topic, which is mostly shooting in the dark and personal preferences, but I finally made a distinction between refresh
rate and input lag. Basically, with 600hz refresh rate it's an overkill, since games only ever have 100hz tops.

2. http://lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lcdtv/120hz-240hz-60hz.html
Then I stumbled upon this incredible site, explaining LCD refresh rate, and how most manufactures fake it, cause picture quality to fail in other aspects. It also teaches the difference between Motion lag, which ails all LCDs, and Input lag. It also explains Plasma 600hz sub field drive. Dumbfound useful.

3. http://paytherant.tumblr.com/post/20057368974/panasonic-2012-plasma-2500hz-ffd-explanation-attempt
A short intermission, explaining the difference between 600hz sub field drive and 2500hz focused field drive. It's only tie to me buying a TV is it offers extra insight into 600hz Panasonic technology.

4. http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/input-lag
At this stage, knowing that Plasma has godlike superiority in picture quality, colours and refresh rate, I was desperate to research Input lag. While these guys didn't list my model in particular, I've learned a lot about Input lag, how to measure it, and most importantly, the difference of measuring it. Model closest resembling mine, the TX-P50S20B, measured 16ms by photo camera. I'll copy paste key parts, which will translate directly into buying TV descision:

- When reading a published input lag figure, find out if it’s taken using the traditional stopwatch cloning/ high-speed camera method or with the newer Leo Bodnar lag tester device.

- Because the latter generally returns a higher number than the former, comparison between different displays is most meaningful when the same method is used. The camera method would appear to take into account the difference caused by a plasma’s subfield driving method in a way which the Leo
Bodnar lag tester does not.

- For the photo method, an input lag between 16ms and 33ms is good; ≤ 16ms is excellent.A Leo Bodnar-derived figure between 25ms and 40ms is good; ≤ 25ms is excellent.

5. http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57587317-221/game-mode-on-cnet-tests-tvs-for-input-lag/
Finally, I found the Input lag for my TV model P50S60, measuring 34.1 ms on Leo Bodnar. Later, bellow the grades, they explain words the testing process, if you're lazy to read it all, here are some key quotes:

"He ranked the other three as worse, and definitely preferred gaming on either the S60 or the Sony. ""So if you're an avid twitch gamer... the S60 would be an excellent alternative."

6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSF9972uVTI
Cheery on top of this most delicious cake, a gamer showing and testifying the response time and how it behaves when gaming."

So armed with extensive research, I went to Harvey Norman and spent some 2 hours staring at TVs. Please keep in mind, following impressions took place in a crowded, heavily rigged retail store, with stupid amount of lighting and brightness, with Avatar playing continuously.

I've compared Sharp Quatro, Samsung 6400 and Panasonic ET 40/42" LED LCDs for a long time, measuring picture sharpness, contrast, colour depth, but also motion lag, artifacts and refresh rate.
Funny, Sharp was least to my liking, being able to notice with naked eye how it's blinking repeatedly was a big turn down.
Samsung was incredibly sharp (lol pun), but colours are washed out and characters looked hand drawn and coloured.
Surprising to me, Panasonic ET presented most quality picture by far in ever possible aspect. I was truly blown away. But the sale price of 1400+ was above me.
I had a look at Panasonic E 42", and I would still choose it over Samsung or Sharp, seeing as it's price was 1k, over Samsungs 1200+ and Sharps 1400.
Main thing about these new Panasonic LCDs is the motion flow is almost like Plasma, but it doesn't sacrifice colour or sharpness.

However, the Panasonic plasma S60 50" was on some insane special for $996, and having already done a full research, the decision came naturally.
There was this overly zealous salesman, who was lingering like STD, even though I asked to be left alone, trying to sell me the ST60, which was right next to S60. His main selling point was that ST had the motion flow processor, anti reflective coating and darker black. Which, granted, was very poignant, with the coastguard reflectors shining directly down on the TV screens. I tried explaining I'm also looking for a TV with least Input lag for gaming, which spurred the expert in him to yell at me lag comes from the internet, not TV. At this stage I had to borderline rudeness and demand to be left alone.

Long story short, I spent the last 30 min being torn between Panasonic E 42" LCD and Plasma 50" S60, both for 1k dollars. But, ultimately, I fell back to my research and decided to ignore stupid amount of brightness in the room, which didn't do any favors to S60.

I've had time to unbox it only last night, had a game of Dota 2 and watched Django blueray in the evening, fantastic first impression. More to come later.

P.S.
Play Witcher 1 first, it's a fantastic game!

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 885781 28-Aug-2013 11:10
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You made the right decision. I strongly suggest you invest in bias lighting of some sort.

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Trusted

  Reply # 885813 28-Aug-2013 12:18
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fahrenheit: You made the right decision. I strongly suggest you invest in bias lighting of some sort.

Any suggestions? I'm planning to wall mount my 65" ST50 soon and would probably be keen for something too.

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 885839 28-Aug-2013 12:52
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If you are wall mounting, then LED is really your only choice (although I prefer and use fluorescent).

I think this is the same product that an avs forums member recently measured and its colour temperature was found to be close to the D65 standard (most are vastly off target and are overly blue).
http://www.amazon.com/Backlight-46-57-inches-Flatscreen-Table/dp/B00390GFJS/ref=aag_m_pw_dp?ie=UTF8&m=A3Q1RED17IKVT4



41 posts

Geek


  Reply # 885845 28-Aug-2013 13:13
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fahrenheit: You made the right decision. I strongly suggest you invest in bias lighting of some sort.


Thanks! I'm the paranoid type, so your post is appreciated :)

I happen to already have a lamp installed on the wall, right above the TV stand, but it's rather bright to leave it on in complete dark.

Can I just buy a specific light bulb, and if so, what would you suggest?

Hopefully, something I can buy in Lightning Plus, and not wait for international delivery.

Thanks!
-M

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 885849 28-Aug-2013 13:24
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letmekiwi:
Can I just buy a specific light bulb, and if so, what would you suggest?

Hopefully, something I can buy in Lightning Plus, and not wait for international delivery.

Thanks!
-M


First, a little bit more info about your setup. What is the wall colour/decor behind the TV and how much space have you got? How out from the wall is the TV? Does the existing lamp sit above the eye level of the top of the TV when you are seated?

155 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 886309 29-Aug-2013 07:09
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how much input lag can you really notice on a TV? I can imagine >100ms being noticeable, but 20 vs 40 vs 60? Can anyone really notice that?



41 posts

Geek


  Reply # 886320 29-Aug-2013 08:24
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fahrenheit:
letmekiwi:
Can I just buy a specific light bulb, and if so, what would you suggest?

Hopefully, something I can buy in Lightning Plus, and not wait for international delivery.

Thanks!
-M


First, a little bit more info about your setup. What is the wall colour/decor behind the TV and how much space have you got? How out from the wall is the TV? Does the existing lamp sit above the eye level of the top of the TV when you are seated?


The wall is plain white and the TV stand is in the corner, so while the edges of TV are near the walls, I can point the lamp in the corner behind the TV. The lamp on the wall is about a meter above the TV, and it's definitely above the eye level.

When I'm sitting in a chair or the couch, the eye level is upper mid of the TV screen, is that good?

As for Input lag, it is easily noticeable and it can ruin gaming experience. Check out the difference between ST60 and S60:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSF9972uVTI

155 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 886324 29-Aug-2013 08:41
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Thanks - on a very limited connection at the moment sadly so can't really load youtube easily :( Care to provide a synopsis?

I do find myself pretty sceptical about anything under 60ms making much difference. I could be wrong of course (maybe those videos show why). Especially if you're comparing 60 to 40, for instance (that's only a 20 ms difference). I can imagine it being more noticeable if it got over 100ms though.



41 posts

Geek


  Reply # 886327 29-Aug-2013 08:55
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I could, but did you read the links from the top of the page? Several places explain Input lag in detail.

It also depends if you game on PS3 or Xbox, or a PC.

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 886333 29-Aug-2013 09:05
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letmekiwi:
The wall is plain white and the TV stand is in the corner, so while the edges of TV are near the walls, I can point the lamp in the corner behind the TV. The lamp on the wall is about a meter above the TV, and it's definitely above the eye level.


Ideally you don't want to see the hotspot which the light casts, because that will be distractingly bright, which is why I was asking whether or not you were looking at it directly when seated. But if as you say, you can angle it in towards the corner, then that may work.
The hotspot (center) should be focused behind the TV and what you see is just the soft diffuse falloff. The aim is for it to be no more than 10% of the maximum brightness that the TV produces.
You can control this by manipulating the focus of the lamp and restricting how far it casts its beam. The problem is that you will be able to see any type of hood/lamp shade because its out in the open. You can get away with a lot more when its hidden behind the TV.




41 posts

Geek


  Reply # 886339 29-Aug-2013 09:19
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Yes, I've already tried putting a cover on it, but as your say, it's very distracting, being in the same line above TV, rather than behind it.

I'll just get a tiny light to go behind the TV.

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 886355 29-Aug-2013 09:53
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Ok, well that will give you much greater flexibility and choice.

I'm not a fan of energy saver CFL tubes. They tend to be either far too warm (yellow/orange) or far too blue. They also have a nasty warmup period where they look fundamentally different in the first 30mins and that can really screw with how you perceive onscreen colour.

A low watt tungsten, or a led bulb may be the way to go. You'll want to aim for something labelled as 6500K (cool white). Although this will likely be too blue compared to the ideal colour temp, its better to be too blue than too red or two green.

Controlling the light spill is going to take some experimentation to get right. You want the light to fall away before it hits the ceiling and bounces back down infront of the screen. Thats easy enough with a desktop lamp which can be pointed directly at the backwall, but harder with a vertically mounted table lamp.

155 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 886359 29-Aug-2013 09:58
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Had a read through the cnet review. Is that the one you meant? They seemed to be able to easily tell between, say, 16 or 34 and 100. But it seemed they actually weren't able to easily pick differences of 40-50ms. Which is about what I would have expected, given the limitations of the human perceptual system.

Also worth mentioning that it wasn't a particularly scientifically rigorous method.

Not trying to pick holes or anything. Perhaps the difference between the s and st will be noticeable to you.



41 posts

Geek


  Reply # 886373 29-Aug-2013 10:03
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What about something like this? http://www.lightingdirect.co.nz/products/led-lights/exterior/10m-x-6-led-cable

Or feel free to link something you think is good :)

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