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#148730 29-Jun-2014 10:26
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Some replies were going way OT on the Esoteric thread...

Fred99:
ilovemusic: nice thread crap.
if you guys are finding "fancy systems" make music unlistenable you are doing it wrong.
a good system will show you deficiencies in a recording but won't beat you over the head with them.


I consider this being beaten over the head.  Same track from same master, different release dates, these both lossless flac from CDs:



Top is original, bottom a remaster.

If the music had been altered from the original it is in effect a remaster, whether the record company brags about it or not.

It looks like a competitor in the loudness wars.

More details ?

It will be interesting to hear the new Beatles Mono analogue remasters when they are released on vinyl in Sept.

The previous stereo digital remasters suffered from a bit too much EQ tweaking, the mono not so much.

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  #1076590 29-Jun-2014 16:32
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That's (the) Guitar Man (Bread), top from the original album (CD) bottom from "Best of".  Just one example of many.  The music isn't my "cup of tea".  When playing the second version through PC / PA system, I thought it sounded crappy - all the dynamic range had gone.  The original sounds much better.
So yes - loudness wars - they compressed it, made the quiet bits louder, they also increased the tempo. It's possibly true that "best of" compilations - you get what you pay for.  That sucks IMO.
Sometimes they do improve remastered versions (IMO). Fleetwood Mac 2004 remastered "Rumours" is one example.  Again - not my cup of tea particularly, but that remastered version sounds phenomenal at max SPL on my slightly silly home stereo (>120 dB/m).



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  #1076608 29-Jun-2014 17:05
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rumours i have on cd & lp from the 2013 eu pressed 25th anniversary box.
the cd sounds ok but not as good as my original german cd.
ditto the 2013 vinyl is not a patch on my original 1977 us pressing.

ime most remasters are crap compared to *good* originals.
the worse culprits are the audiophool re-issuers, charging stupid money for inferior product.

yes, compilations are often the bottom of the barrel.

there are some exceptions,

- the excellent steely dan greatest hits lp

- fleetwood mac greatest hits with the green cover, cd is good, the vinyl is excellent.

- paul simon negotiations and love songs, one of the best compilations ever, original producer roy halee went back and hand assembled the cuts in analogue, some tracks sound better than the original release.

>120dB !!!
far too loud for my fragile ears !

surprised


 
 
 
 


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  #1076619 29-Jun-2014 17:33
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ilovemusic: rumours i have on cd & lp from the 2013 eu pressed 25th anniversary box.
the cd sounds ok but not as good as my original german cd.
ditto the 2013 vinyl is not a patch on my original 1977 us pressing.

ime most remasters are crap compared to *good* originals.
the worse culprits are the audiophool re-issuers, charging stupid money for inferior product.

yes, compilations are often the bottom of the barrel.

there are some exceptions,

- the excellent steely dan greatest hits lp

- fleetwood mac greatest hits with the green cover, cd is good, the vinyl is excellent.

- paul simon negotiations and love songs, one of the best compilations ever, original producer roy halee went back and hand assembled the cuts in analogue, some tracks sound better than the original release.

>120dB !!!
far too loud for my fragile ears !

surprised



So what's the "moral" position re record companies releasing nasty (re)-mastered music?  I know legally I'm wrong - but as far as I'm concerned, when they play dirty tricks like that when you've paid the royalty to listen to the music, to d/l a lossless flac of what you thought you'd paid for seems "fair".

>120dB is seriously loud (I think the sub clips at > 128dB), but when you've got more-or-less flat response from 40Hz up (thanks to an active sub which takes two people to lift) and good well-recorded / mastered music) then while peaks may be getting to that level, it's not overwhelmingly loud - but what I'd call "gripping".  I suspect people could do more damage to their hearing with headphones.  Most domestic subs, THX certiifed, whatever, just don't have the sheer grunt and lack of harmonics that can be delivered by large speakers and horsepower.
My neighbour has B&W Nautilus Signatures driven by Krell 800 monoblocks.  That sounds very good at high SPL too - better than my cheap PA (not as loud though - LOL).  But he had to rewire his house - and then there's the cost...



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  #1076663 29-Jun-2014 19:53
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caveat emptor on remasters.

b&w + krell makes my ears bleed - the only reason that combo got sold is a while ago b&w nz also imported krell.

i prefer something more gentle...

laughing

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  #1076812 30-Jun-2014 08:12
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ilovemusic: caveat emptor on remasters.

b&w + krell makes my ears bleed - the only reason that combo got sold is a while ago b&w nz also imported krell.

i prefer something more gentle...

laughing


Caveat emptor doesn't cover the seller if they conceal defects.  They can hardly deny knowledge of the defect - as they created it on purpose.  There's no disclaimer on the packaging or elsewhere stating that "this music has been tampered with so it's less likely to distort on cowshed radios".

Krell/B&W combination makes your ears bleed?  Oh dear.



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  #1076898 30-Jun-2014 10:43
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the scary thing is these tin ears think they are making an improvement !

that's why the upcoming beatles mono remasters are so interesting, the guys behind it have access to all of emi's original tapes, recording notes etc. plus they have a proven set of good ears.

sorry, never got on with B&W - large or small.
what model has tour mate got ?
b&w threw the 'naultilus ' name around willy nilly.
the cruel actually blame them for the crappy state of classical recordings as studios like emi seem to use b&w for monitoring.

in the big, crazyass super-duper speaker arena my ears prefer active atc's, rockport, tad, avalon acoustics, sonus faber, marten, soundlab

krell (before the management dustup) i have lots of time for.
they defined the bulletproof, arc-weilding genre of home amplifiers.
they make their own speakers too , with high-tech aluminium cabinets.
recently they have also branched out into car audio - they have designed a system for acura (the upmarket arm of honda usa).
note - not familiar with any '800' model krell, care to elaborate ?


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  #1076910 30-Jun-2014 11:12
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Isn't this what Neil Young is on about with his Pono project/product? He's trying to put things right or provide some balance (pardon the pun).




Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.


 
 
 
 


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  #1077204 30-Jun-2014 17:15
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The "Loudness War" got a lot of mainstream coverage in 2008/2009 when Metallica released Death Magnetic, the retail release was "Mastered By Muppets" over compressed to hell, the Guitar Hero version was not, enthusiasts started downloading packs of the tracks from Guitar Hero that were in the original form from Pirate Bay et el.

It's prevalent in many masters now, record execs demand compressed ranges for the big initial impression sacrificing long term quality. A lot of masters post 2000 are suspect....

This Dynamic Range Database is useful in weeding out the crap masters and remasters
http://dr.loudness-war.info/

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  #1077210 30-Jun-2014 17:33
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Even Green Day sounds better with more dynamic range

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EIRF7QW0eA



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  #1077280 30-Jun-2014 19:37
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hahaha

takes more than dynamic range to fix crap bands like green day or coldplay

thanks for the dr daabase link, working through it now...



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  #1077396 30-Jun-2014 21:53
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...interesting how for quite a few albums the most dynamic version is the good old vinyl.

:)

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  #1077791 1-Jul-2014 12:48
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ilovemusic: 

It will be interesting to hear the new Beatles Mono analogue remasters when they are released on vinyl in Sept.

The previous stereo digital remasters suffered from a bit too much EQ tweaking, the mono not so much.


If you want to hear (IMHO) what excellent re-mastering of the original Beatles tapes can be like, grab a copy of the Love Album. Granted the mixes are not the same as in the original stereo mixes but the Love album is derived from the original analogue master tapes (not one generation down) and released as DVD-A so lossless audio.

It always amazes me when I listen to the music how great the audio quality is.




Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD.  https://www.airbnb.co.nz/rooms/32019730  Mention GZ to get a 10% discount

 

System One: Popcorn Hour A200,  PS3 SuperSlim, NPVR and Plex Server running on Gigabyte Brix (Windows 10 Pro), Sony BDP-S390 BD player, Pioneer AVR, Raspberry Pi running Kodi and Plex, Panasonic 60" 3D plasma, Google Chromecast

System Two: Popcorn Hour A200 ,  Oppo BDP-80 BluRay Player with hardware mode to be region free, Vivitek HD1080P 1080P DLP projector with 100" screen, Denon AVRS730H 7.2 Channel Dolby Atmos/DTS-X AV Receiver, Samsung 4K player, Google Chromecast, Odroid C2 running Kodi and Plex

 

 




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  #1077869 1-Jul-2014 13:46
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have heard love in three formats - vinyl lp, dvd-a and cd.

as a casual beatles fan i found the concept poorly executed - overcooked, not my cup of tea.

love cries out for a visual component, by itself it's too uneven to be an album or soundtrack.

sonically, the lp was no better or worse than the pre-2012 digital lps.

the cd was not as good as the 2009 remastered stereo cd's, which hold up well even over the love dvd-a.

the dvd-a advanced resolution 5.1 was ok but surround music is not my cup of tea.


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  #1078640 2-Jul-2014 14:41
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A good example of loud music with good range IMO is the one off Coverdale-Page album.  Engineered by Jimmy Page.  The guitars are prioritised, so probably not  drummers album  Bright and crisp and despite the acoustic assault of the music the audible detail is phenomenal.

Seeing as we are bagging Metallica (down hill after 'Black' Album) for Magnetic perhaps we should give favourable mention to Justice.  Some nice engineering on that album, especially some of the guitar stuff in One and the instrumental.




Mike

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