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328 posts

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# 208085 26-Jan-2017 09:21
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Hi there see my original post on UHD TV HERE

 

Further to that, if upgrading to a new set, I want it to be useful for at least 4 years and to be so, it has to have H265 as this format is rapidly becoming widely accepted, and I think within 4 years, unless bettered will be the de-facto video standard.

 

Quote Wiki: High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC), also known as H.265 and MPEG-H Part 2, is a video compression standard, one of several potential successors to the widely used AVC (H.264 or MPEG-4 Part 10).

 

I found just how good it was today by re-encoding (using Handbrake) a video MPEG-4 size 206.4Mb down to 19.7Mb m4v/h265. Since it was a re-encode there would have been some losses but I could not see any.
Obviously, filesize varies on a case by case but reading more some users are saying their over 1Gb file reduces down to around 200Mb with little sign if any of reconversion losses. (It just takes much longer to encode vs H264)

 

The bottom line is that any new TV UHD with media centre should have H265 as one of its standards, as if you are like us, we stream all videos through ADSL and currently dont have TV antenna.
Netflix is using H265 for UHD broadcast, and they are the major streaming service.  Its saving them massively over H265 bandwidth.

 

According to specs newer models of Panasonic do. Ive asked Sony as their specs say VP8.HEVC which is confusing as VP8 has been superseded by H265.

 

Just something to think about is all if you are in the market for a new UHD Telly.

 

Regards,

 

Alistair.

 

 


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  # 1709814 26-Jan-2017 09:43
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200MB to 20MB is far more gain that I'd expect, 90% smaller. 50% would be more than I'd expect. HVEC is meant to be much better at low bitrates, but not that much better at high bitrates for the same quality.

 

I'd like to have HVEC on my TV, but since TVs tend to last a long time and standards change rapidly I'd do it by adding the smarts outside the TV. The R.Pi3 can maybe, just decode HVEC, but I'm sure there are cheap boxes now or soon that will do it in hardware.


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  # 1709822 26-Jan-2017 09:47
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I have had a play with it, but since the exports were no use for youtube didnt really look into it much more. I was seeing it look fine at about 60% the file size. But didnt really put too much effort into fiddling around with it. Main reason I was trying it was to see exactly what my cheap media playing android boxes would play as far as framerates at 4k and how bad they were munging things up between the video decoder and the HDMI output for video vs the UI which they butcher.





Richard rich.ms

 
 
 
 




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  # 1709829 26-Jan-2017 09:54
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timmmay:

 

200MB to 20MB is far more gain that I'd expect, 90% smaller. 50% would be more than I'd expect. HVEC is meant to be much better at low bitrates, but not that much better at high bitrates for the same quality.

 

I'd like to have HVEC on my TV, but since TVs tend to last a long time and standards change rapidly I'd do it by adding the smarts outside the TV. The R.Pi3 can maybe, just decode HVEC, but I'm sure there are cheap boxes now or soon that will do it in hardware.

 

 

Hi there. The video was a tutorial screencast, so I guess compression rates were a bit unrealistic in comparison to a movie source.

 

Agreed about the STB as a replacement. I was going to mention that, but a user should be able to expect a new TV to provide the standard and not have to shop for addons IMHO.




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  # 1709832 26-Jan-2017 09:56
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richms:

 

I have had a play with it, but since the exports were no use for youtube didnt really look into it much more.

 

 

Youtube has had many users banging on the door demanding H265. Eventually they may see the light as they already have the processing power to re-encode to H265, and it would save them a truckload of bandwidth.


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  # 1709843 26-Jan-2017 10:08
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Is anyone even selling a 4k TV without h.265?

 

 

 

In any case, the laughably ludicrous licensing situation around h.265 as well as strong incoming competition from AV1 means that it's highly unlikely h.265 will ever rise to the heights of h.264. 

 

 

 

Licensing: The MPEG patent pool demanded mostly similar terms to h.264, with an annual royalty cap and amnesty for small-time manufacturers. Then a second pool, HEVC Advance came along, also demanding payment for using HEVC - with no royalty cap, no amnesty, and 0.5% annual revenue attributable to the usage of HEVC, BACKDATED! Whew! They have since toned down their demands, but don't be too happy - there are rumors of a third patent pool coming along some time soon...

 

 

 

AV1: Fed up with all this malarky, a wide range of web and hardware companies formed the Open Media Alliance to build a next generation video codec which would be license-free and totally free to use for any purpose. The membership list is very impressive, and the codec should ship in the first half of the year, and beat HEVC at the same bitrates! Hardware support should be forthcoming, with a wide variety of chip makers on-board, including Nvidia, AMD, Intel, VeriSilicon, Broadcom. Netflix, Google, Amazon will use AV1 on their respective platforms, and the wide support this usage will cause will make AV1 the obvious choice for any new video business - or any such wishing to start putting out 4k content. It's free and better than HEVC, doesn't get better than that.

 

http://aomedia.org/about-us/

 

Of course, HEVC will be the only game in town for 4k BluRays, but physical media is rapidly becoming a niche offering. 4k TV broadcasts (when they come) may also choose HEVC, though I don't know why a business in the small margin industry of FTA TV would choose the codec demanding $10's of millions a year in royalties, unless is was particularly hard to use alternatives.

 

 

 

Perhaps some content owners would demand HEVC use due to parent companies owning patents in the format? Hmm...

 

 

 

Oh, and VP8 is a 1080p-era codec provided by Google, it competed with h.264, and was superceded by VP9.


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  # 1709846 26-Jan-2017 10:10
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ageorge:

 

richms:

 

I have had a play with it, but since the exports were no use for youtube didnt really look into it much more.

 

 

Youtube has had many users banging on the door demanding H265. Eventually they may see the light as they already have the processing power to re-encode to H265, and it would save them a truckload of bandwidth.

 

 

 

 

Youtube will never offer H265. They were developing VP10 before joining the Alliance for Open Media and joining the mash of VP10, Daala and Thor into AV1.




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  # 1709872 26-Jan-2017 10:30
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ripdog:

 

Is anyone even selling a 4k TV without h.265?

 

 

 

In any case, the laughably ludicrous licensing situation around h.265 as well as strong incoming competition from AV1 means that it's highly unlikely h.265 will ever rise to the heights of h.264. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK I missed this and see what you mean:

 

x265 Licenses

 

  • x265 is available under the terms of the open source GNU GPL 2 license.  Source code is available on https://bitbucket.org/multicoreware/x265.
  • x265 is also available under a commercial license to companies who wish to distribute x265 without the copyleft restrictions that the GPL v2 license imposes. For commercial licensing questions, please contact our licensing team (license @ x265.com)

 

 

So the spec we should be watching is AV1, however it leads me to think; whats Netflix going to do now its using H265, and its a member of the Alliance For Open Media/AV1?


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  # 1709888 26-Jan-2017 10:49
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x265/HEVC is certainly great in that the files sizes are hugely smaller that the x264 equivalent.

 

It does require quite a lot of processor power to encode/decode and x265 file though - certainly a lot more that an x264 file.

 

I would hazard a guess that manufacturers are just reluctant to spend a few more bucks that more prowerful processor chips would cost.

 

I suggest that its never worth buying a TV on the basis of its media player or 'smart' ability - its going to be out of date or unsupported a lot quicker than the life (hopefully) of the actual TV.





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  # 1709912 26-Jan-2017 10:57
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ageorge:

 

 

 

Hi there. The video was a tutorial screencast, so I guess compression rates were a bit unrealistic in comparison to a movie source.

 

Agreed about the STB as a replacement. I was going to mention that, but a user should be able to expect a new TV to provide the standard and not have to shop for addons IMHO.

 

 

I find recompressing some online lessons that are mostly just slides with Handbrake from 264 to 264 can give quite impressive savings sometimes.


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  # 1709921 26-Jan-2017 11:20
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ageorge:

 

ripdog:

 

Is anyone even selling a 4k TV without h.265?

 

 

 

In any case, the laughably ludicrous licensing situation around h.265 as well as strong incoming competition from AV1 means that it's highly unlikely h.265 will ever rise to the heights of h.264. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK I missed this and see what you mean:

 

x265 Licenses

 

  • x265 is available under the terms of the open source GNU GPL 2 license.  Source code is available on https://bitbucket.org/multicoreware/x265.
  • x265 is also available under a commercial license to companies who wish to distribute x265 without the copyleft restrictions that the GPL v2 license imposes. For commercial licensing questions, please contact our licensing team (license @ x265.com)

 

 

So the spec we should be watching is AV1, however it leads me to think; whats Netflix going to do now its using H265, and its a member of the Alliance For Open Media/AV1?

 

 

 

 

About the licenses: Sorry, I might not have explained the issue properly. You're talking about software licenses on x265, which is a single implementation of an encoder for h.265. I was referring to the patent pools. Patents are documents filed with the Patent office in each country which describes an invention. The concepts behind HEVC are described in dozens of individual patents owned by dozens of different companies. These patents give said companies the power to dictate the terms under which their little part of HEVC can be used in other companies' products.

 

Since HEVC is useless without all of its parts, this means that every company which developed and patented a part of HEVC could in theory charge their own license fee to use said part in a commercial product - or even prevent its use at all, stopping anyone from using HEVC commercially again. Obviously nobody wants this, so for that reason and the avoidance of confusion/obscene costs, the owners of the HEVC patents formed a patent pool (well, two patent pools) which (in theory) would allow anyone wishing to use HEVC to pay one company and then have confidence that they won't be sued.

 

That's how h.264 worked, at least. For some reason, during this generation the patent holders have become super greedy and the entirely reasonable royalties charged by the MPEG-LA pool wasn't enough, so formed a second pool with a bunch of other patents. As I said earlier, HEVC can't be used without all of its parts, so now implementors of HEVC must pay two royalties for every device they sell.

 

The license situation only matters if you're making money off HEVC. If you're just a guy in his proverbial garage who wants to encode 'family videos' in HEVC, go ahead. 

 

Oh, and just to clarify: x265 is an implementation of the ideas included in the HEVC patents. The patent pools specifically allow software like x265 to be developed and given away, but if I took x265 and built a TV station and encoded my signal with it, I'd have to pay royalties for my use of the patents. And the license for the software, of course :)

 

 

 

Netflix: They will use both, I'd guess. There is already an established base of TV's and STB's which have Netflix apps and h265 support in hardware, but will never support AV1. Unless Netflix cut those devices off from 4k (maybe in 5-10 years?), they need to keep serving h.265. This is far from unusual for Netflix, they already have to transcode their entire library into (IIRC) several dozen format and bitrate combinations for all sorts of esoteric devices with netflix support. They will prefer to send AV1 to AV1 capable devices, no doubt.


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  # 1709922 26-Jan-2017 11:24
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robjg63:

 

x265/HEVC is certainly great in that the files sizes are hugely smaller that the x264 equivalent.

 

It does require quite a lot of processor power to encode/decode and x265 file though - certainly a lot more that an x264 file.

 

I would hazard a guess that manufacturers are just reluctant to spend a few more bucks that more prowerful processor chips would cost.

 

I suggest that its never worth buying a TV on the basis of its media player or 'smart' ability - its going to be out of date or unsupported a lot quicker than the life (hopefully) of the actual TV.

 

 

HEVC is not implemented in 'embedded' devices like TVs in software. That would indeed cost a lot to make, as general purpose processors have huuuuuge efficiency losses compared to implementing the same logic in silicon. Instead, they include dedicated decoder chips, which do nothing but decode HEVC (and deal with the DRM b.s.). The TVs can then include a small, cheap CPU which passes the HEVC stream to the decoder chip and receives raw video in return. This makes HEVC 4k HDR 60fps decoding cheap enough for mass market devices. Trying to do all that on a general purpose CPU would require a high-end intel desktop chip!


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  # 1709967 26-Jan-2017 12:40
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timmmay:

 

200MB to 20MB is far more gain that I'd expect, 90% smaller. 50% would be more than I'd expect. HVEC is meant to be much better at low bitrates, but not that much better at high bitrates for the same quality.

 

I'd like to have HVEC on my TV, but since TVs tend to last a long time and standards change rapidly I'd do it by adding the smarts outside the TV. The R.Pi3 can maybe, just decode HVEC, but I'm sure there are cheap boxes now or soon that will do it in hardware.

 

 

 

 

Like the Mibox, it does H265 @ 4K  - not bad for $70 usd delivered.

 

 

 

  • VP9 Profile-2 up to 4K x 2K @ 60fps
  • H.265 HEVC MP-10 at L5.1, up to 4K x 2K at 60fps
  • H.264 AVC HPat L5.1, up to 4K x 2K at 30fps
  • H.264 MVC, up to 1080P at 60fps
  • Supports HDR10/HLG HDR processing (software upgrade required)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  # 1709974 26-Jan-2017 12:49
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The amazon fire tv (with Kodi installed) does a pretty good job as well.

 

Nice comparison over the different models here::

 

http://www.aftvnews.com/comparing-h-264-vs-h-265-video-playback-on-the-fire-tv-1-2-and-fire-tv-stick/

 

I have the AFTV1 - works well on 720p HEVC - but struggles beyond that.

 

The AFTV1 has to use processor only.

 

Looks like the AFTV2 has the HEVC decoder built in so doesnt really have to work much at all.





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  # 1709990 26-Jan-2017 13:14
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ageorge:

 

 

 

 Ive asked Sony as their specs say VP8.HEVC which is confusing as VP8 has been superseded by H265.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm... my Sony says

 

  • codec: VP9, XAVCS, HEVC

 

So my TV does

 

 

 

  • VP9, the google codec
  • XAVCS, the Sony codec
  • HEVC, the x265 codec

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  # 1709994 26-Jan-2017 13:28
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Isnt VP8 and VP9 googles codec for high quality compressed video?

 

HEVC and H.265 (or x265) are a completely different codec.

 

They are competing codecs. One hasnt replaced the other.





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