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273 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1750077 29-Mar-2017 12:44
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rokki:
Maxcat:

 

rokki:
Maxcat:

 

 

 

rokki:
Maxcat:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then what do you do when the standard replay platform for 5.1 is changed? (See recommended Atmos speaker layout).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



I would argue that 5.1 is no longer the standard each disc is individual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no standard other than what is on the disc. That is the reference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reference playback of 5.1 is on a 5.1  platform.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To upmix 5.1 to an Atmos array including ceiling speakers is the audio equivalent of B&W film colourisation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is no longer accurate and no longer what was originally produced.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So can I take you at your word, there will be no Atmos Upmixing of 5.1 films on your reference system?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



I go both ways. For example I have the Blu Ray of Akira which has a very special audio track as part of the Dolby True HD on that disc I will turn of the two rear back speakers and the Atmos Speakers. Other times if listening to a concert Blu Ray then I might leave all on to simulate being at the concert. So I guess I fall somewhere between reference and preference in hindsight. I guess a lot depends on the gear you have as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can like what you like. It is simply know what you're doing and WHY you are doing it. 

 

 

 

For me over the 25+ years of being around decoders, any time you mess with the original soundtrack you create artifacts. Upmixing 5.1 to Atmos is asking for trouble (quite aside from it being fundamentally inaccurate).

 

 

 

Reading elsewhere of Upmixing Atmos sometimes has dialogue coming from the ceiling. I had much the same thing with Yamaha Cinema DSP in the 1990s with huge amounts of channel leakage and distortion. I gave up on Cinema DSP and arrived at a 'what goes in comes out' philosophy = Reference playback.

 

 

 

That is what is important here. Are you Reference or Preference?

 

 

 

Answer that and the rest I think in terms of establishing/building a home based performance envelope sorts itself out.

 

 

 



I think I will go for something in between. Dependent on source materiel.

 

So what changed from this?:  "I am always about reference it the director wants me to hear the sound in 5.1 then that is what I will listen to. Same if it is a cd then two channel it is."


374 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1750135 29-Mar-2017 13:51
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So what has changed. I know you mentioned that you have heard artifacting from upmixing. But I have not heard this from my current system. So sometimes I guess I just like the extra ambience created. If the source was marketed as the very best audio you can hear and you need to listen with this configuration then I would aim for that ,for example Akira I shut down all the extra speakers and listen pure 5.1.




My gear 55" Samsung 4K SUHD LCD HDR , Denon AVR-4200W Reciever in 7.1.2 Surround , Denon 2 Channel Amp to power ceiling speakers , Combination of Polk Audio Fronts And Tannoy Surrounds plus 2 Cambridge Audio Ceiling Speakers Pioneer Downfiring Subwoofer , Oppo UDP-203 UHD Player , Roku Ultra , Apple TV 3

 
 
 
 




273 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1750173 29-Mar-2017 14:57
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So you're reference unless you have a preference...

 

OK...let me try one final time.

 

It doesn't matter whether you have heard leakage from Atmos Upmixing or not. 

 

The **only** thing that matters is you have altered the artwork.

 

In replaying and upmixing a 5.1 soundtrack on an Atmos system you have done the same as playing a 4:3 aspect ratio film on a 16:9 screen stretched, or playing Citizen Kane in colour or playing a mono film in 'enhanced surround' - you have fundamentally altered the film from what was originally produced.

 

A 5.1 soundtrack has been mastered for playback on the dubbing stage for 5.1 reproduction on a 5.1 system. If you then replay it and upmix the channels to the Atmos ceiling speaker, this was never intended, nor was it heard by the soundtrack producer at any time during film production.

 

Go back to the description earlier in this thread where Dolby dismisses dipole surrounds as fundamentally inaccurate because they interfere in the soundtrack producer's signal placement:

 

"...dipoles disperse the image such that it is utterly directionless, seemingly everywhere at once which is not desired because the mixer has control of the signal placement when he does the mix .” (Mix magazine on “Multichannel replay” as taken from the Dolby press conference at AES).

 

Atmos upmixing does exactly the same thing - it alters the signal placement as originally produced - the producer has lost control of the (audio) signal. It was never produced to end up where it is now being reproduced. It is fundamentally a distortion of the original artwork, just as colourised Citizen Kane would be.

 

So you have a choice - either:

 

Play it and say; Stuff the original mix I'm going to play it because I really like the Atmos distortion that is added to the 5.1 sound mix.

 

OR

 

Play it and say; I'll play it the way it was produced.

 

Over time, preference has overtaken the basic 'recover and replay accurately' Hi-Fi tenet of faith, so those who choose the second option are likely to be in the minority today.

 

 

 

 


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Uber Geek
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  # 1750299 29-Mar-2017 17:29
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I was once in a 'HiFi store' and witnessed a stand-up argument where the owner of the store berated a customer severely for inquiring about a 2-channel amplifier that featured tone controls. He called him all sorts of names, insinuated he was an idiot for wanting to alter the artists / engineers rendition.

 

The customer walked out and most likely would never return... I'm picking to never visit ANY HiFi shop, let alone that one.

 

This wasn't 'aaaaaages ago', it was last year in Napier.

 

 

 

We used to have a HiFi forum in NZ where these type of arguments used to rage on day-in-day-out, and woe behold when a poor 'noob' would post a question about his / her brand new Pioneer + Wharfedale pack they'd just bought from Harvey Norman...

 

The poor buggers would be crucified with comments like 'best throw it in the trash and start again' or 'should have bought Naim / NAD / Cyrus / the refurbed Arcam I'm working on in my shed' etc. The elitist attitude of the forum killed not only support from the industry, but it also harmed the audio enthusiast community and its standing within NZ, after all, no one wants to be perceived as snobbish, cardigan wearing nutbars.

 

 

 

 

 

Maxcat - Using words like 'distortion' is a way of putting up-mixing in a negative light. You know what you're doing when you post this.

 

It's purely alliteration to make a point, not overly subtle, but obviously the crux of the entire thread.

 

But if it's your system - it's your call. Each to their own.

 

However, if you're not going to consume any Atmos content and you deem up-mixing to be distortion... then why put the extra speakers into your new installation? Fear of missing out? If that's the case, stop reading and just spend the money on your 5.1 configuration.

 

Heck, I'll make my point again, if you truthfully knew your intentions prior to making this thread - then why post it to begin with?


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  # 1750304 29-Mar-2017 17:41
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Audio is second only to car tuners for BS being repeated over and over by people that know nothing IME.





Richard rich.ms



273 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1750314 29-Mar-2017 17:59
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Why post? because I am the newbie with Atmos and I have much to learn.

 

And over the past 30 years of surround sound hands-on listening, (20 of it writing professionally about audio and HT), I think I have perspectives still to contribute.

 

 

 

Through this thread and other reading, I have learned some critical points:

 

1) Atmos is not on all Blu-Ray releases

 

2) It might be available in future streams like Netflix

 

3) Sport might be part of the Atmos programmes to come

 

3) Atmos Upmixes 5.1 to the ceiling

 

4) The speaker surround array placement has to be lowered from what I have used for the past 28 years

 

5) The availability is limited

 

6) Academy Award winning films like Spotlight don't use Atmos but the Smurfs do

 

So why did I use the word 'distortion' to describe voices coming from the ceiling? Because when you mess with an original signal and send it somewhere it was never encoded to be, that is what it is: distortion. Yamaha Cinema DSP did the same thing (as did high-end processes like Lexicon Logic 7). Anyof  form of processing introduces artifacts.

 

So, readers here can arrive at their own assessment about Atmos, its future and availability here and whether they want to buy in. I will likely put speakers in the ceiling simply because the prospect of Atmos spreading out to include other than helicopter fly-overs and blockbusters may yet happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Mad Scientist
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  # 1750332 29-Mar-2017 18:48
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I have 5.0 and I can hear helicopters flying over as well as behind, and side to side





Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


 
 
 
 


269 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1756455 4-Apr-2017 17:30
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This discussion and poll might be interesting to some people here:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2804273-poll-upgrade-has-more-impact-3d-immersive-audio-hdr-video.html

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  # 1756493 4-Apr-2017 18:50
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Sorry, I haven't read all 5 pages, I kinda zoned with with the bickering, is the 3D Immersive Audio == Atmos and is the requirement, simply new hardware, or more speakers. I have a 5.1 Setup but about to upgrade my Amp in preparation for when 4K projectors drop under 10K.




273 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1756838 5-Apr-2017 09:50
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joker97:

 

I have 5.0 and I can hear helicopters flying over as well as behind, and side to side

 

 

 

 

Agreed - we all could. Because that is the way the film was encoded for playback. We could do that 30 years ago with Dolby Surround or even just the Hafler Circuit.

 

But sooner or later the helicopter over-head begins to sound a bit like a one trick pony - and frustrating when there is so much more that could be done **IF** the home replay platform is neutral (no dipoles, no post decoding processing, no ambiance addition, rather than ambiance extraction).

 

Atmos needs to avoid sounding like those early Beatles stereo mixes with ping-pong L/R channel placement, when it can do so much more.

 

The real potential for immersive audio is the recreation of a specific audio space. One post from the AVForums is exciting (because it wasn't about friggin' helicopters), it was about the recreation of a cave's sonic signature. Now THAT gets me excited.

 

This guy from Audioholics sums it up here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdomQi2RurM&t=1382s

 

Listen from 14.47 to 16.19. It is an excellent explanation of everything I am saying here. Atmos can (as can DTS-X) recreate a sonic signature of a different environment; a kitchen, an office, a cave, an open field, a highway, the sea, a stadium, a closet, or a coffin.

 

That is the potential. It is NOT (and never was) about having your HT system sound like a movie theater - it is about having it sound like reality.

 

 

 

Also: The secondary issue here for me is the surround encode decode chain is great (for music and film), when it is encoded, but when it's not you get distortion when channels are added and replay sound ends up everywhere because it is not an encode decode chain it is a 'best guess' scenario based on algorithms that aren't accurate. Atmos/DTS-X is still doing this today (see above YouTube clip).

 

Atmos stereo music upmixed is not Henry Mancini in Surround - an encode-decode Dolby recording recorded in 1989 and released in 1990.

 

 

 

 

 


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Uber Geek
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  # 1757242 5-Apr-2017 19:22
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Dunnersfella:

 

I was once in a 'HiFi store' and witnessed a stand-up argument where the owner of the store berated a customer severely for inquiring about a 2-channel amplifier that featured tone controls. He called him all sorts of names, insinuated he was an idiot for wanting to alter the artists / engineers rendition.

 

The customer walked out and most likely would never return... I'm picking to never visit ANY HiFi shop, let alone that one.

 

This wasn't 'aaaaaages ago', it was last year in Napier.

 

 

was that the well known shop that also sells records ?

 

they have some amazing reviews on google

 

tongue-out

 

 

 

 


3537 posts

Uber Geek
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  # 1757273 5-Apr-2017 20:42
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ilovemusic:

 

Dunnersfella:

 

I was once in a 'HiFi store' and witnessed a stand-up argument where the owner of the store berated a customer severely for inquiring about a 2-channel amplifier that featured tone controls. He called him all sorts of names, insinuated he was an idiot for wanting to alter the artists / engineers rendition.

 

The customer walked out and most likely would never return... I'm picking to never visit ANY HiFi shop, let alone that one.

 

This wasn't 'aaaaaages ago', it was last year in Napier.

 

 

was that the well known shop that also sells records ?

 

they have some amazing reviews on google

 

tongue-out

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe...

 

*Runs off to Google to read up*


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  # 1759562 8-Apr-2017 18:23
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joker97:

 

I have 5.0 and I can hear helicopters flying over as well as behind, and side to side

 

 

i could hear similar effects from the old laserdisc version !

 

back before atmos was even a glint in mr dolby's eye

 

 

 

laughing

 

 

 

 




273 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1759643 9-Apr-2017 06:45
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If you go back to The Matrix, much was made at the time of the Dolby animated trailer featuring a helicopter flying overhead promoting Dolby Digital.

 

I still prefer some of the soundtracks on Laserdisc compared to what cane out on DVD - Broken Arrow being one.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeGpJxFVB7I

 

 

 

 

 




273 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1761981 12-Apr-2017 08:49
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Atmos just crossed the line into gimmick territory.

 

Atmos is now available in 2.1.2 configuration.

 

I'm not sure which is/was worse; THX certifying desktop PC speakers or Atmos now offering a non cinematic soundfield.  

 

Pioneer's new VSX-832 is the company's first 5.1-channel AV receiver to support Dolby Atmos and DTS:X in a 2.1.2 or 3.1.2

 

http://hometheaterreview.com/pioneer-introduces-the-vsx-832-av-receiver/

 

 

 

Through this technology, virtual surround processing can accurately deliver sounds that would usually come from physical surround speakers. With 2.1.2 and 3.1.2 channel Dolby Atmos, anyone can experience Dolby Atmos, including those who cannot install rear or overhead speakers.

 

 


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