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gareth41
645 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #162032 4-Sep-2008 09:23
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for that reason I'm not really sure why it NDS don't release a CAM - it would be a logical stopping point that IMHO makes it less likely for hackers to start the hacking process.


maybe nds wont release a cam due to people then being able to gain access to channels they shouldnt, for example the "Auxiliary" channel, that channel doesnt appear on the list of channels in the sky digibox, however it always shows up on freeview boxes and dvb-s cards as being encrypted when a full satellite transponder scan is done on D1, i clicked onto it using my dvb software and ndscam started decoding it and what i found was one of sky's feeds for a rugby match currently live on sky sport 1 at the time, some of the footage was unedited, could see their commentators practising and cameras being waved around etc... they now have a test pattern on there, have done for the last few days.

taylorit
73 posts

Master Geek


  #162035 4-Sep-2008 09:32
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gareth41:
for that reason I'm not really sure why it NDS don't release a CAM - it would be a logical stopping point that IMHO makes it less likely for hackers to start the hacking process.


maybe nds wont release a cam due to people then being able to gain access to channels they shouldnt, for example the "Auxiliary" channel, that channel doesnt appear on the list of channels in the sky digibox, however it always shows up on freeview boxes and dvb-s cards?as being encrypted when a full satellite transponder scan is done on D1, i clicked onto it using my dvb software and ndscam started decoding it and what i found was one of sky's feeds for a rugby match currently live on sky sport 1 at the time,?some of?the footage was unedited, could see their commentators practising and cameras being waved around etc... they now have a test pattern on there, have done for the last few days.


Yes but they could then just assign another channel code to it and others so it would be like having the rugby channel enabled on your card. I don't think they care to much about what is shown on the AUX channel. I mean they show porn on the sports channel so what would behind th scenes matter or a rugby match. hahhaha

 
 
 
 


PottsyNZ
303 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #162057 4-Sep-2008 10:46
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Porn on sports channel? news to me!
What version of sky am I watching?!

argo
87 posts

Master Geek


  #162174 4-Sep-2008 16:37
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just a question on sky channel coding, how does Sky code the the transmission (which all subscribers must rx) so that only
those channels subscribed to are available? My better-half "switches" the movie channel on everytime there is a free movie
channel promo. And this change is done at the the sky-end as nothing happens to the card. Are the changes sent through the transmission and somehow written to our specific card?

And if the card is in a HTPC will these subscription changes still be enabled?

eXDee
4025 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #162200 4-Sep-2008 17:27
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argo: And if the card is in a HTPC will these subscription changes still be enabled?

No it would appear, someone mentioned having to put the card back in the STB every now and then (not 100% confirmed?), and someone else mentoned that they could still watch the rugby channel on their HTPC after they cancelled it, until they put the card back in the STB as is apparently needed.

gareth41
645 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #162236 4-Sep-2008 19:28
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ive just added the movie channels to our subscription, got sky multiroom (2 digi boxes). before i called sky, i had one of the sky card's in the jaycar reader with emm updates enabled in ndscam plus tv software tuned to a movie channel. also had the other tv going and skydigi box with other card tuned to a movie channel. as soon as the cust service rep enabled the movie chans, the tv with sky digibox got a picture but nds cam still said "You dont have a subcription to this channel" i havent bothered putting that card back in the skydigi box to update so its still got no access to the movie channels till i stick it back in. i can confirm tho that if left out of the digibox for longer than 3 months it WILL deactivate, and if put back into the digi box after its deactived you can only get the non encrypted channels like tv1, tv2, tahu fm, etc... tv3, c4 and prime wont work either. the only way to activate the card again is to call up sky cust services. that did happen to me last year, i told them i lost the remote lol hence why the digibox had "been switched off" for 3 months. which was true but only because i had taken sky digibox to my mates flat previously and left the remote there when they moved out. cost was 25 bux for a new remote


Satch

1985 posts

Uber Geek


  #162288 4-Sep-2008 20:47
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gareth41:

i can confirm tho that if left out of the digibox for longer than 3 months it WILL deactivate, and if put back into the digi box after its deactived you can only get the non encrypted channels like tv1, tv2, tahu fm, etc... tv3, c4 and prime wont work either.



Hmm, I'm lucky I picked this part out of that sea of words...

Do you know for a fact that 3 months is the cut off?  Or was it "around" 3 months?

Does anyone know what putting the card back in the Sky STB actually involves?  I'm assuming that you have to have the satellite cable plugged into the box, but do you need to leave it overnight?  Or will popping it in the Sky STB for a few minutes do the trick?


 
 
 
 


argo
87 posts

Master Geek


  #162291 4-Sep-2008 20:50
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So that confirms the card is being written to (via your sky box), which must be via the public transmission ('cause how many of us connect our sky box to a phone line). That would suggest the sky box is always "listening" for a code-specific to your cards "identity" in the transmission stream, and then updates your card as per the instructions in the code. When you consider there would be many code changes tx's at any one time its a very clever system - or I've got this completely wrong!

This does not explain your card timing out though gareth41 unless there's a RTC (real time clock) built into every card? I say this as you said the card was not in the sky box for the whole 3 months, which means the card must have timed itself out (?).

NDS VideoGuard appears to very clever (duh!), does anyone know how the whole system works? Or is that knowledge part of the "security" equation?

Oh, and to add the obligatory disclaimer: "I ask this only for purposes of understanding the ramifications of using my card legally, in a HTPC"!

djaggar
76 posts

Master Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #162322 4-Sep-2008 22:13
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argo: So that confirms the card is being written to (via your sky box), which must be via the public transmission ('cause how many of us connect our sky box to a phone line). That would suggest the sky box is always "listening" for a code-specific to your cards "identity" in the transmission stream, and then updates your card as per the instructions in the code. When you consider there would be many code changes tx's at any one time its a very clever system - or I've got this completely wrong!

This does not explain your card timing out though gareth41 unless there's a RTC (real time clock) built into every card? I say this as you said the card was not in the sky box for the whole 3 months, which means the card must have timed itself out (?).

NDS VideoGuard appears to very clever (duh!), does anyone know how the whole system works? Or is that knowledge part of the "security" equation?

Oh, and to add the obligatory disclaimer: "I ask this only for purposes of understanding the ramifications of using my card legally, in a HTPC"!


I don't know how VideoGuard works ... I'm not sure anyone does outside NDS ... but achieving something like this doesn't require the smart card to be anywhere near that smart. For example, the smart card might have a rolling set of 12 keys. Each week a new key might be sent, replacing the oldest of the 12, so that that key will unlock the stream that is sent in 11 weeks time. For the next week, sky will instruct the card to use key number 1 to decode the stream, then next week key number 2 etc etc to decode the stream. If you are unable to update your 12 keys, then when you come to use the 12th one again it won't work. Now it isn't going to be that simple, but such a system would exhibit the behaviour you see here.

If you really want to know how it works, called Taeus in Colorado Springs. Their name stands for Take Apart Everything Under the Sun - and they are good at reverse engineering ICs. But after a naughty wee chinese ARM clone that popped up a few years ago I can tell you the fee is several hundred years of Sky subscription ...

This reminds me of the AMD guys going down to the local supermarket to expose 35mm film of the 386 die ...





taylorit
73 posts

Master Geek


  #162366 5-Sep-2008 09:02
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argo: just a question on sky channel coding, how does Sky code the the transmission (which all subscribers must rx) so that only
those channels subscribed to are available? My better-half "switches" the movie channel on everytime there is a free movie
channel promo. And this change is done at the the sky-end as nothing happens to the card. Are the changes sent through the transmission and somehow written to our specific card?

And if the card is in a HTPC will these subscription changes still be enabled?


The system is very simlair to it's older brother video crypt the only dif it that the stream is digital rather than analoge and allows a wide range to transmit more info.

Every channel is encrypted with NDS Videoguard this makes the signal impossible to watch unless you have the key (Vaild Card). Every channel has a channel ID (Hex Value) and when you are watching a channel this data is imbedded into the stream the decoding engine (weather it be a decoder or Software CAM) requests an answer from the card in the form of a seed. This info provides the start point to decode the info and also checks to see if you are allowed to watch the content. i.e. you have movies channel active on your sub then you have watch the channels, otherwise you will get no sub please call sky.

Yes, all card updates including channel packages are addressed over the air to the card. Every card has a ESN and multiple cards can be address in a batch with a single instruction. For pay per view the decoding engine needs verfication that it can proceed, this can not be done using a HTPC as all the decoer does is dial up to SKY (modem) obtain acceptance and set a flag on the card for that session. As read you can get a pay per view movie request accepted in a STB then put it in to a HTPC and it will work util the session expires then no go again. The other problem is the key table updates also sent via the air addressing, the NDSCAM does not pass these through therefore the 3mth thing will render the card hopeless and will need to be reactivated.

Also with digital DVB-S they have the ability to marry the card to a STB box id, this can allow them to stop the card being used in other STB's and even in HTPC's unless you put the box ID in the config file. At present only Pay Per view is locked to Box ID.

There is heeps of info out there, and basically the streght of the system is the Smart Card as this can not be played with else it will fry and the NDS system is very complex so you can never decode without using the two part system Decoder & Card.

PottsyNZ
303 posts

Ultimate Geek


#162377 5-Sep-2008 09:26
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Thanks for that great infoCool

We're getting lotsa useful info flying backwards and forwards...do we to start a small wiki or soemthing?

argo
87 posts

Master Geek


  #162381 5-Sep-2008 09:39
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So key take aways for Sky on HTPC are:


1) You will need to cycle your card thru the sky box EVERY 3 months (actually less than 3 if you don't want it to expire), in order to refresh it with the key-table updates. This would probably (?) not be a quick slot-it-in-the-decoder exercise as the card will need to catch the next update transmission (how often are the updates sent?).

2) Any subscription changes will require you to perform the same exercise.

3) Your new sky enabled HTPC could lose sky at anytime if they decide to lock the normal tx's to Box ID, as is currently the case for (only) Pay Per View - is this likely?


Not exactly set-n-forget is it :-(

taylorit
73 posts

Master Geek


  #162383 5-Sep-2008 09:46
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argo: So key take aways for Sky on HTPC are:


1) You will need to cycle your card thru the sky box EVERY 3 months (actually less than 3 if you don't want it to expire), in order to refresh it with the key-table updates. This would probably (?) not be a quick slot-it-in-the-decoder exercise as the card will need to catch the next update transmission (how often are the updates sent?).

2) Any subscription changes will require you to perform the same exercise.

3) Your new sky enabled HTPC could lose sky at anytime if they decide to lock the normal tx's to Box ID, as is currently the case for (only) Pay Per View - is this likely?


Not exactly set-n-forget is it :-(


hmm, yip might see a HTPC on Trademe to make room for a MySky at this rate..

mcraenz
1091 posts

Uber Geek


  #162403 5-Sep-2008 10:41
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Can't you put the box ID into NDSCAM though?




taylorit
73 posts

Master Geek


  #162410 5-Sep-2008 10:53
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mcraenz: Can't you put the box ID into NDSCAM though?


Yes that is true, but also the ECM & EMM Updates are ment to work also but they don't todate. Hence the cards being deactivated after a period.

;->[CARD]
;
; Auto BoxID: 0 This feature will try to read the boxid from the card.
; Manual BoxID: Input 10 first numbers of your boxid in decimal.
; Manual BoxID sample: if your boxid is 01234567891 then BOXID=0123456789
; BOXID=0


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