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Batman
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  #2042386 22-Jun-2018 13:25
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Yes but you get no bass




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bignose
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  #2042388 22-Jun-2018 13:28
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Batman: Yes but you get no bass

 

 

 

you get even bass - which is often better than the option than having HEAPS of bass in one seat and moving 1m to the right and having NONE

 

 

 

if it's not ENOUGH bass you probably just need a more powerful sub (or a multiple sub setup)


 
 
 
 


Batman
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  #2042389 22-Jun-2018 13:29
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I guess my room is not representative so let's say it may or may not be a good position!




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jonathan18
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  #2042440 22-Jun-2018 14:02
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Yeah, placing subs near walls and - for an extreme effect - corners will maximise bass, but no assurances it's going to be quality, both in terms of what it does at different frequencies as well as in relation to different locations within the room.

 

@Batman: when you did have a sub, did you do the exercise of putting the sub in the primary seating area then crawling around the room with a test tone playing, listening to how the bass frequencies you heard changed as you moved? It's one way of determining placement (in that you switch out the sub for the place where you were located when you heard the most balanced response). Even if it's not where you end up locating the sub (as it can be a really impractical location) it's a great way to get a sense of the impact of location on bass response - experiencing this alone is enough to convince me that in-wall subs are a compromise too far!


Jaxson
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  #2042444 22-Jun-2018 14:08
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Batman:

 

Pretty sure sub needs to be near some walls, not in the centre of the room ie coffee table

 



Not all coffee tables (bourbon and coke tables is more precise) need to go in the middle of the room.
I like one or two either side of the couch.

 


Alternate option for an in wall sub is to build a box enclosure, in the bottom of the well located wardrobe on the other side of the wall...

 

 


Batman
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  #2042452 22-Jun-2018 14:36
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jonathan18:

Yeah, placing subs near walls and - for an extreme effect - corners will maximise bass, but no assurances it's going to be quality, both in terms of what it does at different frequencies as well as in relation to different locations within the room.


@Batman: when you did have a sub, did you do the exercise of putting the sub in the primary seating area then crawling around the room with a test tone playing, listening to how the bass frequencies you heard changed as you moved? It's one way of determining placement (in that you switch out the sub for the place where you were located when you heard the most balanced response). Even if it's not where you end up locating the sub (as it can be a really impractical location) it's a great way to get a sense of the impact of location on bass response - experiencing this alone is enough to convince me that in-wall subs are a compromise too far!



Yes I did the crawling for sub thing (put the sub where my ear would be in my preferred sitting position) but find that the ideal position was for the sub to be suspended in the air near the tv screen! So I just put it back where it was in the corner.




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Batman
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  #2042453 22-Jun-2018 14:36
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YMMV




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bigfulla213

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#2042804 23-Jun-2018 13:06
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Hey guys, thanks for your replies. A few of you have brought up points that I feel need clarifying.

 

 

 

- The lounge is basically a dedicated movie/gaming room, music will rarely be played in here as the rest of the house will have ceiling speakers in most rooms.

 

- The front L & R speakers are a long way to the side but there isn't enough room to fit them on either side of the TV on the centre part of the wall. The TV cut out is allowing for a 65" TV to fit to the wall with 100mm clearance all the way around.

 

- The spaces between the TV and speakers are windows.

 

- I originally planned to have dual subs (placed under the L & R speakers) but then started leaning towards a single sub to keep the cost down mainly. I know in-wall is a terrible idea and performs no where near as well as a freestanding active sub but it's mostly about aesthetics as some of you would have picked up. For a sub and amp that I am looking at is around $535 not including any wiring, double that for dual subs. I am willing to sacrifice a certain amount of quality to have the room look good. But hey, if it's going to ruin my whole set up, like if I really had to, I would just chuck an active sub in the corner.

 

- Given the space of the room I had envisioned the couch going hard against the back wall and one day possibly upgrading to a corner suite to come around the wall. I just can't really picture a freestanding sub fitting in as a "side table" next to the door (it would push the seating positions more to the side).

 

- Somebody mentioned moving the centre speaker below the TV and maybe moving the L & R down a little as well, I can definitely do this. But then the sub becomes an issue once again yell. Also move the ceiling speakers foward?

 

 

 

We could write a book on how to achieve the best results but at the end of the day I'm not an audiophile and the room set up isn't perfect. I don't require a "cinema" experience more so just want a true surround set up that blends in to the room and won't make me go bankrupt. Just have to make the room work, I know there will definitely be sacrifices with sound quality to achieve the built-in modern appearance I am after. Appreciate all of the adivce, keep it coming. Just a reminder about the original question 8" speakers or 6"?


Batman
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  #2042805 23-Jun-2018 13:10
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Get a cheap sub from trademe now and save for dual sub. It's worth it.




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bignose
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  #2042841 23-Jun-2018 14:30
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If your budget can stretch to it move the in ceilings forwards (to act as atmos front presence speakers) and fit a second set of in ceilings at the rear (for rear presence) for a full 7.1 atmos array. Or at least move the current pair of ceilings forward so you can add a pair of rear ceilings later.

If it's purely for movies then as someone else has alreadty stated you should be putting the MOST $ towards the centre as it's the speaker that will be working the most. I had a look at the centre you linked to and I'd definitely think about going up a tier or two as it's quite small/anaemic (and the money saved dropping all the other speakers from 8" to 6" should pay for the upgrade) .

You could put the sub in the rear wall if you're using a passive/sub-amp combo, but if the couch is hard against that wall I don't think that would work that great (though it would then allow you to move the centre down under the screen).

Sounds like you've got realistic expectations in terms of the whole aesthetics/budget/performance balancing act - if you really are only budgetting $500-ish for the sub+sub-amp then stick with your plan, in freestanding actives you're going to have to at least double that to get something 'ok' (and 4x that amount to get something bordering on 'good').

What are you using to for the main amp/processor?






bigfulla213

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  #2042941 23-Jun-2018 19:02
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bignose: If your budget can stretch to it move the in ceilings forwards (to act as atmos front presence speakers) and fit a second set of in ceilings at the rear (for rear presence) for a full 7.1 atmos array. Or at least move the current pair of ceilings forward so you can add a pair of rear ceilings later.

If it's purely for movies then as someone else has alreadty stated you should be putting the MOST $ towards the centre as it's the speaker that will be working the most. I had a look at the centre you linked to and I'd definitely think about going up a tier or two as it's quite small/anaemic (and the money saved dropping all the other speakers from 8" to 6" should pay for the upgrade) .

You could put the sub in the rear wall if you're using a passive/sub-amp combo, but if the couch is hard against that wall I don't think that would work that great (though it would then allow you to move the centre down under the screen).

Sounds like you've got realistic expectations in terms of the whole aesthetics/budget/performance balancing act - if you really are only budgetting $500-ish for the sub+sub-amp then stick with your plan, in freestanding actives you're going to have to at least double that to get something 'ok' (and 4x that amount to get something bordering on 'good').

What are you using to for the main amp/processor?

 

 

 

I could probably stretch a little to add another set of speakers if it would make a difference, easily do able if I change them all to 6". Only thing is the amp I was going to use is a 7.2 channel, wouldn't I need a 9.2 to do 4 height speakers? I was going to use a Sony STR-DN1080, but then changed to a Marantz NR1607 a few months back. Just did a quick search though and it looks like there is a new model out, NR1609 so that might be the go (although I can only find NR1608 available for NZ at the moment). I chose this one in particular for the smaller size to fit in my rack.

 

 

 

Can you recommend a better centre channel speaker? I thought you were suppose to stick with the same brand for speakers?


bignose
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  #2043079 24-Jun-2018 10:32
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bigfulla213:

I could probably stretch a little to add another set of speakers if it would make a difference, easily do able if I change them all to 6". Only thing is the amp I was going to use is a 7.2 channel, wouldn't I need a 9.2 to do 4 height speakers? I was going to use a Sony STR-DN1080, but then changed to a Marantz NR1607 a few months back. Just did a quick search though and it looks like there is a new model out, NR1609 so that might be the go (although I can only find NR1608 available for NZ at the moment). I chose this one in particular for the smaller size to fit in my rack.


 


Can you recommend a better centre channel speaker? I thought you were suppose to stick with the same brand for speakers?



hard to find a true 9 channel amp under $3k, you could look at the yamaha a870 (which is on clearance to make way for the a880 so is cheaper than the marantz right now) which has 9 sets of speaker terminals, but if you look at the manual you’ll find that you can only run the front presence OR the rear surrounds (amp will pick which channel is active depending on cinemaDSP program). Personally I’d probably just move the current in-ceilings forward and fit the rear ceilings later (when/if 9 channel amps get cheaper and when we all have to upgrade AVRs again thanks to hdmi2.1/8k tvs)

as for the front/centres - you comitted to Polk? Dynaudio, Paradigm and Q Acoustics all have in-wall options, ranging from similar prices to the Polks up to silly $$

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  #2043128 24-Jun-2018 13:26
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bignose:
hard to find a true 9 channel amp under $3k, you could look at the yamaha a870 (which is on clearance to make way for the a880 so is cheaper than the marantz right now) which has 9 sets of speaker terminals, but if you look at the manual you’ll find that you can only run the front presence OR the rear surrounds (amp will pick which channel is active depending on cinemaDSP program). Personally I’d probably just move the current in-ceilings forward and fit the rear ceilings later (when/if 9 channel amps get cheaper and when we all have to upgrade AVRs again thanks to hdmi2.1/8k tvs)

as for the front/centres - you comitted to Polk? Dynaudio, Paradigm and Q Acoustics all have in-wall options, ranging from similar prices to the Polks up to silly $$


Not sure what you mean by a true 9 channel amp. Maybe I was just in the right place at the right time, but I picked up a Marantz SR7012 for $2K. Says it has 9 discrete amps in the manual and the couple of Atmos titles I have show 9 speakers active on the receiver display when they are playing. Currently I have it set up in 7.1.2 but have the 6x6” in-ceiling effects speakers set up so they can be 7.1.2 or 5.1.4. Perhaps not ideal spacing iaw the Dolby specifications but I have them positioned so they can do double duty. There aren't enough titles that use Atmos at the moment so that's why it's in 7.1.2 configuration.

To the OP. I fully understand the asthetics vs performance dilemma. I am yet to hear a set of in-walls (even at the high price end) that sound as good as decent bookshelves. In the end asthetics normally wins out (due to WAF). My decisions are made by whether I'm willing to live with the audio/video compromise for the look. Or whether it will bug me every time I sit down to watch something.
From your diagram the fronts and sub are on an external wall. I have struggled to find definitive info on how their performance is affected by insulation and external cladding. There are custom enclosures, but I think they need to be tuned as well? And if you want to change in the future will the hole/enclosure be appropriate for the new speaker. For me, using bookshelves means a change of as simple as changing the banana plugs over (and recalibrating of course!). But I do get grief about "all these speakers in the room" occasionally. Turning the volume up normally drowns that out /joking.

Edit: Actually, disregard what I said about external walls, from your diagram it looks like your are using internal false walls to mount the speakers?




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bignose
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  #2043134 24-Jun-2018 14:21
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Dingbatt: Not sure what you mean by a true 9 channel amp. Maybe I was just in the right place at the right time, but I picked up a Marantz SR7012 for $2K


That's a killer deal - the sr7012 is a $4.5K avr : https://onlinehifi.co.nz/product/marantz-av-receiver-sr7012/


bigfulla213

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  #2043138 24-Jun-2018 14:51
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Not committed to Polk, just like the price point. I have looked up those brands you suggested and they are all a lot more expensive than the Polks - I am buying these from Amazon, the ceiling speakers will cost me around $250 for a pair and the wall speakers a little over $300 for a pair. They also have hundreds of reviews on Amazon so I feel like they will be a pretty safe bet.

 

 

 

You have got me thinking about a better centre channel though, I have found a few options...

 

- JBL Studio 2 55IW (2x 5.25" woofers, 1x 1" tweeter) 120W RMS, 384mm x 188mm $315

 

- Earthquake EWS-530C (2x 5.25" woofers, 1x 3" mid range and 2x 1" tweeters) 350W max, 349mm x 248mm $549

 

- Q Acoustics QI LCR 65RP (2x 6.5" woofers, 1x 1" tweeter) 15-100W power handling, 511mm x 221mm $499

 

Jamo IW 626 LCR FG II (2x 6.5" woofers, 1x 1.5" mid range and 1x 1" tweeter) 80W RMS, 562mm x 232mm $500

 

 

 

Compared to the original choice...

 

- Polk 255c-RT (2x 5.25" woofers, 1x 1" tweeter) 10-150W power handling, 333mm x 194mm $325

 

 

 

Did some working out and the L & R speakers being positioned where they are create an angle of 62 degrees between the centre listening position and the speakers. The suggested range is 40-60 degrees. Each tweeter has 15 degrees of swivel so I should be able to get well within the optimum angle?

 

 

 

As for subwoofers, I'm thinking of possibly building my own in-wall subwoofer enclosure. It would just be a simple rectangular MDF box that extends into the false wall cavity, unsure of exact dimensions at the moment but would be about ~200mm deep and then basically whatever height and width I want (studs will be altered to suit, wall is non structural purpose built for mounting equipment into). This would allow me to step up to a 10" or 12" instead of dual 8" subwoofer. Was thinking of a Dayton audio DS315-8 12" woofer at this stage...and to be honest I probably will go down the dual subwoofer road. Still brainstorming though as I would need grills and have to think about mounting etc.

 

 

 

Thoughts?


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