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635 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 243458 6-Aug-2009 13:37
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Hinko: I am not. 
I blame the manufacturers for:

  1. giving consumers incorrect information and indeed



  2. for simply not fully or adequately informing consumers.


What has that got to do with content providers?

Does the consumer have a right to not be misled and a right to be properly informed?  I believe so.


1. giving consumers incorrect information and indeed
 - it is not incorrect information. If your TV supports 1080i over component and the blu-ray player supports 1080i output then unprotected content will display at 1080i. Even if the content is protected and it gets downscaled, the content is still be shown on the TV so therefore the play supports 1080i over component. If it didn't support it you would not get a picture at all.

2. for simply not fully or adequately informing consumers.
 - seems like you have found plenty of information and fine print about what it can and can't do. don't see the problem.

The consumer is still best to take the approach of buyer beware. If you have been told a direct lie by a sales person or a support line then by all means complain. If you think the manufacturer advertising of products is misleading contact the manufacture or the commerce commision or even fair go.




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Uber Geek
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  # 243490 6-Aug-2009 14:46
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Hinko: To make it easy for those who are less inclined to download the manual this is similar to the section from Page 61 from one of the downloadable manuals, including the fine print stating the purported capabilities of a Sony Bluray player, solely for study purposes, to contrast to the much more readily accessible website information at the start of this thread:

Originally: Blu-ray Output
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via component ; 576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via HDMI

Now: Blu-ray Output
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i (60Hz) via component;
576i / 576p (50Hz) via component;
576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (50Hz) via HDMI;
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (60Hz) via HDMI;
1080p (24Hz) via HDMI
 




576p is the max with 50hz component, with no DRM ? Whereas 60hz gets all the available resolution ? That's a bit on the sucky side of things ....

Or is 50/60hz irrelevant now with Blu-ray ?




My thoughts are no longer my own and is probably representative of our media-controlled government


 
 
 
 


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  # 243505 6-Aug-2009 15:13
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Man can we please stop beating the dead horse!!

Hinko we all are abundantly aware that you believe that manufactures are deceiving people about HD specifications.

Almost without exception people are telling you that:

If you do your research you can find the information that you say is being hidden.
The manufactures are only doing what is forced on them by the content providers.
You were a early adopter and got stung. It happens move on.

My feeling is that you are wanting the impossible. You feel that manufactures should be fully disclosing the limitations of their hardware even though the limitations are forced on them (by the content providers). You want this so that consumers are do not get stung like you did (which is fair enough).

However there is a major issue with what you are suggesting. 80% or more of the population glaze over when you just say the word HD. As soon as you put a chart showing what a TV or other device and cannot display you may as well have written it in Hebrew. They just turn off.
This puts the manufactures in a impossible situation. The are forced to cripple the hardware they release with HDCP. If they did try and tell consumers no one would read or listen to what they say.
But when it all goes wrong (as in your case) they are the ones that cop the flack.

For the remainder of the population that do not turn off 90% of them are in one way or another geeks and will do their own homework or already have read any of the multitude of articles concerning the HDCP fiasco.

If you must bleat at someone please bleat to the content providers. They are the ones that have forced this rubbish on us all.

By the way I had to laugh at the opening sentence on the DCP web site.

Welcome to the world of digital entertainment enabled by HDCP technologies.

Excuse me WHAT??!! just how does HDCP enable digital entertainment?

http://www.digital-cp.com/

Now can we all please move on and get back to our lives?







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195 posts

Master Geek


  # 243514 6-Aug-2009 15:34
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browned:

Hinko:I blame the manufacturers for:

  1. giving consumers incorrect information and indeed



  2. for simply not fully or adequately informing consumers.


What has that got to do with content providers?

Does the consumer have a right to not be misled and a right to be properly informed? I believe so.





1. If your TV supports 1080i over component and the blu-ray player supports 1080i output then unprotected content will display at 1080i.


Correct. No problem.



Even if the content is protected and it gets downscaled, the content is still be shown on the TV so therefore the play supports 1080i over component.


Downscaled = misleading = problem.

The consumer plays protected HD 1080i content. The TV is capable of, through component, displaying 1080i. The bluray player is stated to play 1080i over component - with no stated exception.

BUT the consumer sees SD content, say 576i.

The promotional information given to the consumer does not tell the consumer what discs are protected and in what way.

The website gives the consumer no inkling their 720p or 1080i content may be cut down to be seen at SD.

I suggest the consumer's expectations are mislead.

Can I be clearer than that?




If it didn't support it you would not get a picture at all.


This misses the fundamental point, it is not about a display, it is about the quality (definition) of display.


If one buys a car that they are told has a 200KW engine, later they find out that in some circumstances that they were not told about (and could therefore not control) the engine is only 100KW, would the consumer be entitled to feel mislead? There is no difference here.






2. for simply not fully or adequately informing consumers.
- seems like you have found plenty of information and fine print about what it can and can't do. don't see the problem.

The consumer is still best to take the approach of buyer beware.

If you have been told a direct lie by a sales person or a support line then by all means complain. If you think the manufacturer advertising of products is misleading contact the manufacture or the commerce commision or even fair go.


This seems good advice, in addition to making the information more obvious to consumers as browned and Geekzone is kindly assisting here.

nety: Now can we all please move on and get back to our lives?


I beg your pardon, you are free to unsubscribe and stop reading as soon as you wish. Please stay on point.

The quote on enabling HDCP technologies is interesting and indeed ironic, thank you.



195 posts

Master Geek


  # 243522 6-Aug-2009 15:43
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SepticSceptic:
Hinko: To make it easy for those who are less inclined to download the manual this is similar to the section from Page 61 from one of the downloadable manuals, including the fine print stating the purported capabilities of a Sony Bluray player, solely for study purposes, to contrast to the much more readily accessible website information at the start of this thread:

Originally: Blu-ray Output
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via component ; 576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via HDMI

Now: Blu-ray Output
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i (60Hz) via component;
576i / 576p (50Hz) via component;
576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (50Hz) via HDMI;
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (60Hz) via HDMI;
1080p (24Hz) via HDMI
?




576p is the max with 50hz component, with no DRM ? Whereas 60hz gets all the available resolution ? That's a bit on the sucky side of things ....

Or is 50/60hz irrelevant now with Blu-ray ?


Good question, thank you! It seems to me that 60Hz is for the US market and 50Hz is for non US, however even the manual seems silent on this aspect. How does it go again? Caveat emptor?

Why US gets HD over component yet it seems we do not does seem a mystery. Perhaps another geek knows why?

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Uber Geek
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  # 243552 6-Aug-2009 16:36
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Hinko:
SepticSceptic:
Hinko: To make it easy for those who are less inclined to download the manual this is similar to the section from Page 61 from one of the downloadable manuals, including the fine print stating the purported capabilities of a Sony Bluray player, solely for study purposes, to contrast to the much more readily accessible website information at the start of this thread:

Originally: Blu-ray Output
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via component ; 576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via HDMI

Now: Blu-ray Output
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i (60Hz) via component;
576i / 576p (50Hz) via component;
576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (50Hz) via HDMI;
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (60Hz) via HDMI;
1080p (24Hz) via HDMI
?




576p is the max with 50hz component, with no DRM ? Whereas 60hz gets all the available resolution ? That's a bit on the sucky side of things ....

Or is 50/60hz irrelevant now with Blu-ray ?


Good question, thank you! It seems to me that 60Hz is for the US market and 50Hz is for non US, however even the manual seems silent on this aspect. How does it go again? Caveat emptor?


Why US gets HD over component yet it seems we do not does seem a mystery. Perhaps another geek knows why?


Well, given the current state of Sony, they are no longer the upper tier of consumer electronics and innovation. Whilst I haven't got a blu-ray player, nor do I see one in the foreseable future for me, I'd certainly be watching those specs quite closely for any manufacturer should I be in a market for one. Upgrading the AV Receiver to an HDMI capable one is even further off in the distance.




My thoughts are no longer my own and is probably representative of our media-controlled government




195 posts

Master Geek


  # 243785 7-Aug-2009 08:03
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SepticSceptic:

Well, given the current state of Sony, they are no longer the upper tier of consumer electronics and innovation. Whilst I haven't got a blu-ray player, nor do I see one in the forseeable future for me, I'd certainly be watching those specs quite closely for any manufacturer should I be in a market for one. Upgrading the AV Receiver to an HDMI capable one is even further off in the distance.


Now readers, consider this very appropriate consumer repsonse that is in part a consequence of fuller and more accurate information disclosure.

Bear in mind that Sony with its dual interests in Manufacturing and content provision has found it necessary to delay ICT introduction - and why that might be....  (Could it be something to do with Sony's analogue warranty obligations mostly having ended around 2012?)

Now consider:


browned: Component is an analogue system so even though it can display 1080i if it is used to display HD content and that content has a protected path requirement the output will be downscaled or forced at DVD quality. This is the nature of HDMI/HDCP.

Don't blame manufacturers for content providers requirements.


IF

a few readers here started to wonder (there are a few great speculators here....come on guys I've seen you....) what my views on content providers might be.....

NOW

I'd like to make it very clear that I have made no particular reference to involving content providers in my campaign here about full and accurate information disclosure in this thread.

Consider what my views of content providers might be...

Consider what the average consumers reaction to fuller information disclosure might be....

Consider what my concerns might REALLY include and what this Dude is REALLY on about...

Consider that perhaps what I am on about may well be worth more support by more people....

without any reference to content providers....

We Kiwis might achieve a lot more than many might have been thought possible.

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Master Geek
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  # 244618 10-Aug-2009 10:10
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Hinko, life is too short. Get over it.



195 posts

Master Geek


  # 247235 16-Aug-2009 16:26
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What do Sony say in Australia? Perhaps they do better over the Tasman?

How about this from http://www.sony.com.au/productcategory/hv-bluray-disc-player product drill down:

Component Video Output

Commonly found in DVD players, these terminals are used to output high quality video signals directly to devices with DVD component inputs such as selected models of Sony TVs. The video signals are separated into three separate channels for the best possible relay of signal.


No warning in Australia about ICT HD cut down there either. Perhaps the problem extends beyond New Zealand's borders? Hmmm.

635 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 248077 18-Aug-2009 11:40
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Hinko:
Component Video Output

Commonly found in DVD players, these terminals are used to output high quality video signals directly to devices with DVD component inputs such as selected models of Sony TVs. The video signals are separated into three separate channels for the best possible relay of signal.


No warning in Australia about ICT HD cut down there either. Perhaps the problem extends beyond New Zealand's borders? Hmmm.


But DVD players do not play HD content, don't think high quality video signals means High Definition. What are you getting at?

It would be a problem if it said commonly found in blu-ray players and used to output High Definition content to HDTV's in full 720p/1080p resolutions with no restrictions.




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195 posts

Master Geek


  # 248145 18-Aug-2009 13:23
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browned:
Hinko:
What do Sony say in Australia? Perhaps they do better over the Tasman?

How about this from http://www.sony.com.au/productcategory/hv-bluray-disc-player product drill down:


Spelling this out.....  The URL is for Blu Ray Players
Anyone bothering to look would have confirmed the DVD quote was provided by Sony in regard to Bluray players...

Component Video Output

Commonly found in DVD players, these terminals are used to output high quality video signals directly to devices with DVD component inputs such as selected models of Sony TVs. The video signals are separated into three separate channels for the best possible relay of signal.


No warning in Australia about ICT HD cut down there either. Perhaps the problem extends beyond New Zealand's borders? Hmmm.



But DVD players do not play HD content


Browned, are you sure about this?  That is not my understanding.  A HD file can fit on a CD, let alone a DVD. 

In any event the quote is in reference to Bluray players!  Don't ask me, Sony provide it!  Ask them!

No wonder people do not understand the issues.


It would be a problem if it said commonly found in blu-ray players and used to output High Definition content to HDTV's in full 720p/1080p resolutions with no restrictions.


Thank you for appropriately acknowledging my proposition, effectively it seems to be saying that.

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  # 248167 18-Aug-2009 14:05
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Hinko:  A HD file can fit on a CD, let alone a DVD. 



Did you discover some fantastic new codec that allows compression of 120 mins of 1080p footage down to 700MB?

I've long moved on from MPEG1 VCD quality. The quality of a 1080p file compressed down to 700MB would be fairly similair.





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  # 248206 18-Aug-2009 15:22
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Don't like it, don't buy it.

The HD standards have settled down a bit now with Bluray becoming the standard, but for a while there they were all over the place.  Receivers that could only switch hdmi signals, not process them etc.  We've come out the other side of this war and it's all fairly fixed now.  Even in freeview UHF/HD land, any official box will not outupt HD over component.  This is just the way it is and it's common place now.

Component Video Output

Commonly found in DVD players, these terminals are used to output high quality video signals directly to devices with DVD component inputs such as selected models of Sony TVs. The video signals are separated into three separate channels for the best possible relay of signal.

It means exactly what it says it means:
Component out does give the best quality analogue signal for a given source when compared to the other analogue outputs of composite and s-video.  It doesn't say anything here about HD video/audio over component.  If you do chose to copy an HD file onto a DVD datadisc then simply don't expect the player to output this in HD via the component outputs.

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