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291 posts

Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 299946 17-Feb-2010 21:32
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Not trying to belittle the guys who are getting strung out by this, but to me this is verging on hysterical paranoia

Yeah, the TV's aren't perfect -I never expected to buy the perfect TV that would never age, or never loose any picture quality during it's lifetime. If such a TV existed they may as well close the R&D departments down right now.

And sure, maybe Panasonic made a small mistake with their voltage regulations in terms of how they match with plasma decay, -But I'll bet the vast majority of people getting upset about this have not, and probably never will notice the issue themselves. Talk about the power of suggestion.

Lastly, I'm not trying to defend Panasonics PR team or their business practices -that's a different topic anyway.




"There is no way to Peace -Peace is the Way" (A. J. Muste)

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 299959 17-Feb-2010 22:07
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Masterpiece: I lack of knowledge of display systems leads some to over claim issues or non issues in all sorts of areas in imagery.
I quote myself from another forum

I don't see this as a major issue, I think this is because I might understand the nature of life...ie all things get old and decay....including us

Anyway, the main issue is people claiming issues when not understanding what is happening.
It is clear that Panasonic has stepped the voltage drive to account for panel decay, obviously the issue for some is that it is/can be noticable...at first, I suspect those who set the panels up correctly with calibration may actually notice the change more than those who don't. However dispite this, decay will take care of the blackpoint levels ...in time of course...

Half life decay means. That the Rated hours is where the panel contrast will be half that of new, the decay rate tends to follow a log curve in shape. This means in the first 1hour the curve is near virtical, after 100~200 hours the curve is braking away and the panel pixels and lighting system settles, ie breakin period. After that the curve rolls off fairly sharply. This initial period can roll off peak contrast by a considerable amount and applies to all products, but it doesnt just effect the top end, it effects the whole scale from Black to white, thus the stepped voltage drive system that resets the drives once the curve begins to flattern out.

Hope that helps explain what is happening, it is not a fault, excepting for that later models I believe they use smaller increments so it is less noticable.


^ I understand what is there and what it is doing but there is a question (which they seemed to have answered with the 2010 models) of whether or not this has been inelegantly implemented.

Panasonic certainly haven't done themselves any favours by saying that the coming models will be more gradually aged. They look like they've made a mistake in the implementation of a system. But rather than admitting that the implementation is wrong, they are just focusing on justifiying the existence of that system.
Its only by proxy of the new models that we getting any real idea that things haven't gone to plan.
Noone should be seeing a dramatic jump from one day to the next and I'm sure Panasonic never intended it to do so.

Its sad if Panasonic sweep it under the carpet if something could be done, especially if its merely a firmware upgrade.
I expect my hair to go grey, just not overnight. My TV shouldn't be any different.


Quidam: Not trying to belittle the guys who are getting strung out by this, but to me this is verging on hysterical paranoia


Belittle? No, but certainly amuse. 'Hysterical' is literally without restraint or clarity and I don't see any of that here.

I'm yet to put my money down, so I am approaching this from a cautious and guarded standpoint (based on the little data I can gather). If I was already an owner, I'd be playing the 'wait and see' game.

If anything, this discussion has brought me full circle back to where I was when the V10 was the natural choice should I be forced into making an upgrade
That of course doesn't make Panansonic any less accountable should my needs as a consumer not be met.

291 posts

Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 299961 17-Feb-2010 22:10
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It's just a TV, not a cure for cancer




"There is no way to Peace -Peace is the Way" (A. J. Muste)

 


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 299965 17-Feb-2010 22:27
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Well this/next year you will have the new Panasonic panel dubbed the Kuro Panasonic, of course if you have the cash...alot of cash you could buy the 152" 3D plasma panel shown off at CES.




Masterpiece Calibration Ltd, isf certified

 

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 299985 17-Feb-2010 23:39
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Quidam: It's just a TV, not a cure for cancer


Hows that "not trying to be belittling" working out for you?

291 posts

Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 300036 18-Feb-2010 09:17
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Guys, so my opinion is that if you do not own a Panny, and are genuinely concerned about this issue (which some of you clearly are) you should definitely not buy a 2009 model. At least wait until the next generation comes out, with improved voltage regulation. This will allow you to sleep well at night. Otherwise, regardless of whether you actually notice a change in black levels or not, it will always be eating at you in the back of your mind.

The fact that you will not find a single post on any NZ forums about existing Panny owners who have actually first hand witnessed this black level degradation is not the point. It's all about perception, that's the human condition, and Panasonic really dropped the ball in how they handled this issue -not because they are trying to hide a terrible flaw about their TV's, but because the Tin-Foil hat brigade, with the aid of the www can cause a lot of damage to a companies reputation if you give them even half an inch to play with. Panasonic should have seen it coming.

What they should actually have done is gone into defcon 1 damage control mode at the first whisper of this issue. Developed a lock-tight PR spin and never admitted that they would look at improving voltage regulation on their future TV's because they dug themselves into a hole by being too honest. The truth is, no one appreciates honesty when it delivers bad news.

So am I mad at Panasonic? Hell yes. I'm mad that they make such great plasma's at a price that I can actually afford. I'm mad that their products are so robust and have never failed on me once. I'm mad that they don't seem to use cheap materials on their TV's in order to improve their profit margins. I'm especially mad that their plasma screens are so damn resistant to image retention, unlike my previous Samsung that would continue to show me the last game I'd been playing for hours afterwards. Lastly, when I buy last years model at runout prices, I still expect nothing but the best money can buy, because I could care less if Panasonic survives as a company, at least long enough to make the next generation of Plasmas -even when most other manufacturers are already abandoning the market.




"There is no way to Peace -Peace is the Way" (A. J. Muste)

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 306206 11-Mar-2010 11:20
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I'll preface this post with a reminder that it was a logical conclusion of mine that the V10 was the best choice at the right price. I still feel that is the case but do see a point at which that opinion may change.

My new 50" has had around 160 hours running time. I noticed the other night that contrast had degraded and of course I suspected that the black level had elevated.

I took this shot just after 120 hours -



and this is after approximately 160 hours -



As expected as it was, it was a shock to see such a change in such a short time frame. I did not actively look for brighter blacks, I merely noted that overall contrast seemed flatter from one day to the next.

Cnet have since revoked its recommendation for the Panasonics after their own testing.
Every unit is affected whether you perceive it to be or not. The gen 12 models seem to be overly aggressive. The 2010 models will all suffer this too (regardless of how gentle it may shift). This isn't going away any time soon and with Panasonics head in the sand and a class action lawsuit pending, we shouldn't expect anything to change the status quo.

I am not surprised, but disappointed that the display has degraded in such a short period of time. If it only takes another month before I'm faced with another rise, then my attitude may change from one of disappointment to one of complete disgust.

It is rather shameful that a product can be so good out of the box but diminish in such short space of time (20 days of viewing at 8 hours per day).

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Master Geek


  Reply # 306305 11-Mar-2010 16:06
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fahrenheit: I'll preface this post with a reminder that it was a logical conclusion of mine that the V10 was the best choice at the right price. I still feel that is the case but do see a point at which that opinion may change.

My new 50" has had around 160 hours running time. I noticed the other night that contrast had degraded and of course I suspected that the black level had elevated.

I took this shot just after 120 hours...


Did you take the photo with completely full manual exposure settings with identical settings, shutter speed, apature and ISO?

I notice that the power light appears to be more vivid in your 160 hour shot, which makes me wonder if you camera settings had changed.

How much did you pay? I was condering buying one this weekend. $2998 with 17 months deferred payment interest free at HNs.

I notice that the display model in the shop which is most likely done a lot of hours still looked much blacker and better contrast than the alternatives.

I like the V models and fear that if I wait for the 2010 range then I'd either have to pay a fortune for 3D in the new V model which I'm not really interested in or be forced to downgrade to a G model.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 306306 11-Mar-2010 16:13
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amigo:

Did you take the photo with completely full manual exposure settings with identical settings, shutter speed, apature and ISO?


Check the EXIF data, its identical.

Same camera settings, same ambient light levels and same source including warmup/retention clearance.
The only factors that differed were the exact height of the tripod and how square-on to the display the camera is. Those are two factors that are more difficult to control.
That is what accounts for the flaring of the power LED. Smile

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  Reply # 306308 11-Mar-2010 16:18
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I get more variance with how far down this crap LCD the picture is then between the pictures. Hell, didnt even see the grey till I angled the screen.




Richard rich.ms

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 306317 11-Mar-2010 16:43
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richms: I get more variance with how far down this crap LCD the picture is then between the pictures. Hell, didnt even see the grey till I angled the screen.


A few things to keep in mind -

* The pictures are indicative only. They are approximations of what I see from my couch. They cannot convey the full scale of the change, especially when you cannot compare the raster and the bezel.
The pictures are a visual record to remind me of what my display was like at 'X' amount of hours and reference I can check when I suspect change has occured. Memory is hazy and without the proper light metering equipment, they are the next best thing.

* Your own display that you are viewing the images on will prejudice the results. It could look 10 times worse than reality, or it could look black as the ace of spade in both samples. Your mileage will vary.

It helps to see a side by side comparison in some cases -







This swatch is made using the Average Blur filter in photoshop.

* Its important to note that this is the first of many black level rises the display is due to go through. It may never reach the high levels of LCD's washy blacks, but that does not diminish the negative impact that going from nice inky blacks out of the box to washy blue/green blacks only weeks/months later entails.


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  Reply # 306324 11-Mar-2010 16:56
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Had a look on the real computer with the realmans CRT and wow, what a difference. Can you see it in person, because its a lot dimmer than the LEDs so I would expect it to be invisible unless you were to let your eyes get accustomed to it, and then you would lose the dark sight as soon as there was something on the screen till you wait a few mins to get used to it.




Richard rich.ms

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 306331 11-Mar-2010 17:08
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richms: Can you see it in person, because its a lot dimmer than the LEDs so I would expect it to be invisible unless you were to let your eyes get accustomed to it, and then you would lose the dark sight as soon as there was something on the screen till you wait a few mins to get used to it.


If anything, its more pronounced than what the picture conveys because what those pictures do not indicate is how much ambient light is created from the TV as it holds the black screen. There is literally tons of light spilling out onto the glossy bezel, onto the glass AV table etc. Its just going to get to the point where sitting in a dark room won't be possible because there isn't any darkness. I'm not much for sitting in the dark anyways but its evidently not going to be possible moving forward.

One thing that I'm doing to relieve the issue somewhat is bias lighting behind the TV.
I've got a 2ft fluro lamp and am just trying to settle on a bulb and appropriate placement for it. It will help increase the contrast and with the right colour temperature tube will also improve colour perception.



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  Reply # 310885 24-Mar-2010 17:46
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how are those 2 pictures proof of anything? have you corrected for iso, shutter speed and aperture? even if you did there are in-camera processing that can change, well largely colour so i'm not sure if grey-black is processed. all jpegs have been processed by what ever your camera has - DIGICIII, DIGICIV, etc.

is this the same scene or is it just a blank screen?

having said that i dont know how you can compare - to a historical jpeg ...

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  Reply # 310886 24-Mar-2010 17:47
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might be best to compare a particular dark scene. but you cant go back in time for that ...

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