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750 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 467019 9-May-2011 09:59
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Dunnersfella:
What are you using to calibrate your TV? Light meters / software? Or calibration discs?


None of the above I imagine. Its why I suggested some vague settings as a start point. Besides, its far to early to judge the picture quality at this point, let alone calibration.



567 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 467027 9-May-2011 10:05
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OK, I think the majority of the disappointment I experienced yesterday was due to my source. I tried an Onkyo (actually Pioneer - more rebranding) HDMI DVD player - again with the TV upscaling - and combined with some tweaks in the TVs GUI, it looks 100x better.

I also tried a PC at 1080p via HDMI, and first impressions were good; text was surprisingly readable. However it became rapidly apparent that this unit has some serious issues with motion (The colour fringing effect I'd read about). No good for FPS gaming, but this TV was not bought with that in mind. Unfortunately, I did see the same effect in DVDs as well, although only fleeting glimpses.

I hope that calibration will further polish this TV.

Dunnersfella: After reading this, I must say I struggle to see why you're disappointed at the performance of the panel. You've gone and bought a big TV and you're feeding it a crap source. Sure TV's can up-scale, but they most certainly can't turn water into wine.


As above. But still, is one to discard SD content altogether?

 
 
 
 


750 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 32


  Reply # 467028 9-May-2011 10:09
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Oubadah: OK, I think the majority of the disappointment I experienced yesterday was due to my source. I tried an Onkyo (actually Pioneer - more rebranding) HDMI DVD player - again with the TV upscaling - and combined with some tweaks in the TVs GUI, it looks 100x better.

I also tried a PC at 1080p via HDMI, and first impressions were good; text was surprisingly readable. However it became rapidly apparent that this unit has some serious issues with motion (The colour fringing effect I'd read about). No good for FPS gaming, but this TV was not bought with that in mind. Unfortunately, I did see the same effect in DVDs as well, although only fleeting glimpses.

I hope that calibration will further polish this TV.


False contouring (that colour banding on motion you are seeing) is far worse on 50Hz (TV/DVDs) and 24Hz than games which are 60Hz. These TVs really do sing when they are fed 60Hz sources. Sadly it sounds like you aren't planning to consume much of that though.



567 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 5


  Reply # 467035 9-May-2011 10:35
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fahrenheit: False contouring (that colour banding on motion you are seeing) is far worse on 50Hz (TV/DVDs) and 24Hz than games which are 60Hz. These TVs really do sing when they are fed 60Hz sources. Sadly it sounds like you aren't planning to consume much of that though.


The PC was pushing 60Hz, but it looked pretty bad to me. 

It seems to me that as long as I make my comparisons with CRT, I am to be forever destined to be disappointed. Motion on a KV-HR, even the KV-DA32 was about as flawless as you could get (at TV refresh rates). 



750 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 32


  Reply # 467039 9-May-2011 10:44
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Oubadah:
fahrenheit: False contouring (that colour banding on motion you are seeing) is far worse on 50Hz (TV/DVDs) and 24Hz than games which are 60Hz. These TVs really do sing when they are fed 60Hz sources. Sadly it sounds like you aren't planning to consume much of that though.


The PC was pushing 60Hz, but it looked pretty bad to me. 

It seems to me that as long as I make my comparisons with CRT, I am to be forever destined to be disappointed. Motion on a KV-HR, even the KV-DA32 was about as flawless as you could get (at TV refresh rates). 




You were coming from an HR? I feel your pain then. Same happened to me and you will not have an easy time of it I'm afraid. The HR36 was a $6000 TV and V20 wasn't even half that at its peak RRP. They just aren't building high end consumer TVs anymore.

You still should reserve judgement at this point though. The TV needs to settle in and grayscale is probably absolutely dire at this point (which will exaggerate any phosphor trailing even further).

6448 posts

Uber Geek
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Trusted

  Reply # 467056 9-May-2011 11:23
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Ditch the the DVD source, get a bluray player (even a cheap one will be a tiny fraction of what you spent on the TV), and fix up your freeview wiring/aerial.

You can't complain if you buy a convertable and only drive when it's raining.

9 posts

Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 467058 9-May-2011 11:27
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Oubadah> How much did you get your unit for? I got mine 2 weeks ago for 2.4k and I think I paid too much for it!!
Anyway, I am thoroughly enjoying the panasonic v20 with full HD movies. You should really try blu-ray with this set!
I have a 3 year old 40" Sony LCD and it doesn't even come close to the panasonic's PQ. No regrets!

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 467071 9-May-2011 12:06
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2.4k is fairly good when you got it - you just need to accept that TV prices are continually hemorrhaging, especially with new models around the corner.
As consumers we win - especially compared to almost every other country :-)



567 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 467138 9-May-2011 15:03
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Jaxson: Ditch the the DVD source, get a bluray player.


I plan to.

But motion is motion, regardless of the number of pixels being resolved, and so far the colour fringing is my largest gripe.

mooder: Oubadah> How much did you get your unit for? I got mine 2 weeks ago for 2.4k and I think I paid too much for it!!


2.6k

mooder: I have a 3 year old 40" Sony LCD and it doesn't even come close to the panasonic's PQ. No regrets!
 

Considering the inherent flaws of LCD, I'm not mat all surprised.

 



567 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 467256 9-May-2011 19:19
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Well here is a (rather shoddy) video of the fringing effect. It's not rendered quite as the eye sees it - it's more of a blur in real life, whereas the camera has caught some pulsing because of the refresh rate. But it's no less noticeable in real life, and the yellow/blue colour captured by the camera is pretty accurate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LFbuy3GJZg

Of course, the video game is panning much faster than any film would, but I still see the effect on movies. I've seen it countless times whilst watching The Pacific, and find it highly distracting.

I don't see why we still have to put up with this kind of flaw... How many years has plasma had to mature?

222 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 467420 10-May-2011 09:46
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Your first post requirements must be 24hz and 1080p, As the others mention, get a decent source, a modest Panasonic BD player will do both.

Set the player to output 1080p, even for Pal 576i material. The player will a better job than the TV.

NZ is 50hz, although they can handle 60hz, you will get artifacts. Even though 50hz is a lower frez the framing sequence has less issues than 60hz.

TV's are not designed for gaming, although in some models you find gaming modes which turn of processing to speed them up. However they are about Video signals where processing to avoid such artifacts is done and then of course there is a processing delay. With TV or video this delay is mostly accounted for and you the viewer won't notice. Separating the signal before the tv to a sound system may show up timing issues where then you add a delay into the sound.
Oh and PC's are buggers for artifacts.

PAL material will only look good set to 4:3 shape and not upscaled by the TV, it really is pretty much just a simple scaler stretching the image to fill the extra pixels. A real scaler is valued at about the same price you payed for your tv alone.

PAL is 720 * 576, actually 625 lines.
HD(1080) is 1920 * 1080, actually 1125 lines.
Hell of a lot of stretching going on to fill PAL into 1080.

Other visual issues are related to viewing distance, for true HD the viewing angle is aprox 30degees, for PAL roughly 11 degrees. This is to do with visual acuity, sit outside these basic parameters and you see artifacts or desolve artifacts.
Typically people replace a CRT where they sit 4~5 meters away, this is beyond visual acuity, then replace with a HD display and they are suddenly about right visual range, however the old material is now bigger blown up and scaled and you see all these artifacts which where hidden.




Masterpiece Calibration Ltd, isf certified

 

www.mastercal.co.nz

 

 

"I'm not a robot!"

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  Reply # 467426 10-May-2011 09:59
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Oubadah:

I don't see why we still have to put up with this kind of flaw... How many years has plasma had to mature?


I don't see why you still carry on about this kind of flaw... How many people need to tell you to get a decent source? Wink
Or to put it another way, you're trying to run your car on diluted petrol and now you're complaining about performance...



567 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 5


  Reply # 467467 10-May-2011 11:33
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Dunnersfella:
Oubadah:

I don't see why we still have to put up with this kind of flaw... How many years has plasma had to mature?


I don't see why you still carry on about this kind of flaw... How many people need to tell you to get a decent source? Wink
Or to put it another way, you're trying to run your car on diluted petrol and now you're complaining about performance...


That footage is of a decent source. Since when could you play UT2004 on a DVD player? That's a 1080p 60Hz HDMI signal from a GTX 580. Also tried it at 50Hz.

222 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 467559 10-May-2011 13:49
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Dispite being a modern video card, the output from PC's can be unregulated, controlled via the software running it and settings you apply, even then it can have oddities.

Some things to keep in mind, video is 16~235, PC is 0~255, games are typically of 0~255 scale so you might clip blacks and whites if setup for video.
I believe your Nvidia driver has a video output setting, although your game probably does not. What other settings do you have applied, like quality and vsync.

Have you ever plugged a PC into an old CRT TV, not a CRT monitor but a TV. Its really bad, far worse than what you have now. However if you display video levels of PAL on an old CRT it would look ok.

Many people use PC's with TV's and have good results, but you have to fiddle with setup to get the best out of them.

A BD player output is regulated and controlled to be compatible for video signals, simple as that really.




Masterpiece Calibration Ltd, isf certified

 

www.mastercal.co.nz

 

 

"I'm not a robot!"



567 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 5


  Reply # 467561 10-May-2011 13:53
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Masterpiece:
Have you ever plugged a PC into an old CRT TV, not a CRT monitor but a TV. Its really bad, far worse than what you have now. 


It always looked fine on my Trinitrons.

I'm sorry, I get carried away. I said myself that this wasn't supposed to be for gaming.

It's just depressing that there aren't any displays that are at least as capable as what I had in 2004.

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