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68 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 489975 6-Jul-2011 11:23
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nzskater: I stopped looking. Then I saw it. Urrgh. Now I can't help but see it everywhere. This set is unbelievable for movies. Stunning. Flawless. Great. For Xbox however the judder issue is absolutely horrid. Sorting out a replacement this week hopefully.

http://www.youtube.com/user/therealnzskater#p/a/u/0/i6T3Wx5l7zU 



Yeah games will stand out more so than everything else, but you can see that even a quite a slow pan can show judder. Great somebody checked it out and backed me up with facts! I'm not all rants!

Thanks!Laughing

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 489979 6-Jul-2011 11:30
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If the Samsung allows native res (1920x1080) with VGA, then try the 360 with a VGA cable and see if it makes a difference.

VGA generally has less management than HDMI. You may even find it reduces lag too.



68 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 489980 6-Jul-2011 11:31
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Is pretty noticeable in a still...

Samsung PS51D8000 judder issue



68 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 489981 6-Jul-2011 11:35
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fahrenheit: If the Samsung allows native res (1920x1080) with VGA, then try the 360 with a VGA cable and see if it makes a difference.

VGA generally has less management than HDMI. You may even find it reduces lag too.

Cheers for the suggestion, will try it tonight. But in all fairness stuff that as a fix. Switch to an ancient, lower quality technology to solve a fundamental issue with the TV?

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 489995 6-Jul-2011 11:50
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nzskater:
fahrenheit: If the Samsung allows native res (1920x1080) with VGA, then try the 360 with a VGA cable and see if it makes a difference.

VGA generally has less management than HDMI. You may even find it reduces lag too.

Cheers for the suggestion, will try it tonight. But in all fairness stuff that as a fix. Switch to an ancient, lower quality technology to solve a fundamental issue with the TV?


Sorry, I think terms are being confused here. Your still pic above picture shows typical ghosting with 30fps games (an entirely different phenomenon to judder).
Judder would be when the framerate hitches (pauses) momentarily and/or teleports resulting in abrupt movement. What your pic shows is something common to plasma. There is nothing you can do about it other than to play games with interpolation engaged on the TV (which will add a large amount of lag). If you are bothered by it then there really isn't any good news for you I'm afraid.



68 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 490006 6-Jul-2011 12:07
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fahrenheit: Sorry, I think terms are being confused here. Your still pic above picture shows typical ghosting with 30fps games (an entirely different phenomenon to judder).

It happens in video as well, as can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEWvOVfmnGY&feature=youtu.be&hd=1

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 490007 6-Jul-2011 12:16
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nzskater:
It happens in video as well, as can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEWvOVfmnGY&feature=youtu.be&hd=1


Judder from 3:2 pulldown and ghosting in 30fps gaming are two entirely different things.
If you are seeing 3:2 pulldown type judder when gaming then that is definitely uncommon behaviour, but your still picture is typical behaviour and an unrelated issue.



68 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 490009 6-Jul-2011 12:20
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fahrenheit:
nzskater:
It happens in video as well, as can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEWvOVfmnGY&feature=youtu.be&hd=1


Judder from 3:2 pulldown and ghosting in 30fps gaming are two entirely different things.
If you are seeing 3:2 pulldown type judder when gaming then that is definitely uncommon behaviour, but your still picture is typical behaviour and an unrelated issue.

Watch that video, hit pause and you'll see the same issue. Check out one of the trees against the snow; there's clearly three frames showing. It's not as dramatic as in game but seems very similar.

Are they really two completely different things manifesting themselves in the same way? 

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 490015 6-Jul-2011 12:38
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nzskater:
Are they really two completely different things manifesting themselves in the same way? 


Yes they are fundamentally different things. Lets forget all that for a moment and clarify what it is that you are seeing.

Are you seeing ghost images when panning the camera around in 30fps games (ghosting), or do you see brief pauses or teleportation where the framerate seems to skip (judder), or do you see a combination of the two?



68 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 490047 6-Jul-2011 13:47
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If you look at the video's, both of the Red panning shot and the 360 footage you'll see it is both. It stutters, and during each stutter/pause/judder/skip it ghosts. The ghosting is not a constant, it appears during each judder.

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 490058 6-Jul-2011 14:03
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nzskater: If you look at the video's, both of the Red panning shot and the 360 footage you'll see it is both. It stutters, and during each stutter/pause/judder/skip it ghosts. The ghosting is not a constant, it appears during each judder.


Honestly, videos are next to useless when it comes to portraying these types of issues so I can't assertain much from them without a huge amount of speculation and doubt. I am only interested in what you see with your eyes directly.

If you are seeing judder, then the first thing you need to eliminate from the equation is the source. Determine whether or not it is the game, the delivery method (HDMI) or the console's settings (1080p I presume?)

You need consistent and reliable source material and hardware to drive it in order to determine where the problem is. Games with variable frame rates and upscaling consoles that tax the CPU, are not reliable.



68 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 490061 6-Jul-2011 14:04
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I tested the exact same source (both in terms of hardware and configuration) on my old set and the issue didn't exist.

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 490078 6-Jul-2011 14:29
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nzskater: I tested the exact same source (both in terms of hardware and configuration) on my old set and the issue didn't exist.


If the fault is with the TV, then you will see this happening with other sources.
You need video source material to determine this. Video footage will give you a reliable framerate. Gaming will not. If you start seeing frame drops with video, you know something is definitely screwy.

68 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 490119 6-Jul-2011 15:51
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fahrenheit:
nzskater: I tested the exact same source (both in terms of hardware and configuration) on my old set and the issue didn't exist.


If the fault is with the TV, then you will see this happening with other sources.
You need video source material to determine this. Video footage will give you a reliable framerate. Gaming will not. If you start seeing frame drops with video, you know something is definitely screwy.


This TV as stated before is missing its motion processor "Motion Plus" the model before has it PS50C7000 but the new D8000 doesn't this is a fact. All you need to do is go to the Samsung website and compare the 2 models manuals. In the new D8000 manual it states the feature and what it does but then in brackets says "for LED TV".

I think the panning shot from the movie RED is a very good example of what sort of scene to demo with but the YouTube example is abit hard to point it out.

Again you need the facts in front of you before you can comment i.e A PS50D8000 a Blu-ray player with either movie RED or Poseiden playing on the particular scenes to have it stand out to you.

The only new model TV's I have found at the moment that have decent motion processors are the Samsung LED range from 6000 series above (Motion Plus) and the Panasonic ST30Z and above (Intellegent frame creation).

Note: Some people don't like the motion processing effect, may say it looks fake and not natural as it adds smooth motion and depth to the image. However when you get used to it its very hard to go back to a TV without one as the juddering is extremely noticable. And when paying a premium for a TV you want it to have the best motion processor and its upto you if you turn it on or off.
   

752 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 490130 6-Jul-2011 16:08
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Bolly:
fahrenheit:
nzskater: I tested the exact same source (both in terms of hardware and configuration) on my old set and the issue didn't exist.


If the fault is with the TV, then you will see this happening with other sources.
You need video source material to determine this. Video footage will give you a reliable framerate. Gaming will not. If you start seeing frame drops with video, you know something is definitely screwy.


This TV as stated before is missing its motion processor "Motion Plus" the model before has it PS50C7000 but the new D8000 doesn't this is a fact. All you need to do is go to the Samsung website and compare the 2 models manuals. In the new D8000 manual it states the feature and what it does but then in brackets says "for LED TV".

I think the panning shot from the movie RED is a very good example of what sort of scene to demo with but the YouTube example is abit hard to point it out.

Again you need the facts in front of you before you can comment i.e A PS50D8000 a Blu-ray player with either movie RED or Poseiden playing on the particular scenes to have it stand out to you.

The only new model TV's I have found at the moment that have decent motion processors are the Samsung LED range from 6000 series above (Motion Plus) and the Panasonic ST30Z and above (Intellegent frame creation).

Note: Some people don't like the motion processing effect, may say it looks fake and not natural as it adds smooth motion and depth to the image. However when you get used to it its very hard to go back to a TV without one as the juddering is extremely noticable. And when paying a premium for a TV you want it to have the best motion processor and its upto you if you turn it on or off.
   


Intelligent frame creation (Panasonic) and Motion Plus (Samsung) are frame interpolation features and are completely optional functions. Most people who have discerning taste will disable this feature. The absence of it, or disabling it does not result in framerate hitching on a TV that is functioning correctly.

If this is missing on the D8000 (and I'm only taking your word it is), then Samsung have clearly recognised that customers wanting to buy their flagship plasma are generally in the demographic of consumers who do not share your love of interpolation.



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