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68 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 490152 6-Jul-2011 16:46
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fahrenheit:
Bolly:
fahrenheit:
nzskater: I tested the exact same source (both in terms of hardware and configuration) on my old set and the issue didn't exist.


If the fault is with the TV, then you will see this happening with other sources.
You need video source material to determine this. Video footage will give you a reliable framerate. Gaming will not. If you start seeing frame drops with video, you know something is definitely screwy.


This TV as stated before is missing its motion processor "Motion Plus" the model before has it PS50C7000 but the new D8000 doesn't this is a fact. All you need to do is go to the Samsung website and compare the 2 models manuals. In the new D8000 manual it states the feature and what it does but then in brackets says "for LED TV".

I think the panning shot from the movie RED is a very good example of what sort of scene to demo with but the YouTube example is abit hard to point it out.

Again you need the facts in front of you before you can comment i.e A PS50D8000 a Blu-ray player with either movie RED or Poseiden playing on the particular scenes to have it stand out to you.

The only new model TV's I have found at the moment that have decent motion processors are the Samsung LED range from 6000 series above (Motion Plus) and the Panasonic ST30Z and above (Intellegent frame creation).

Note: Some people don't like the motion processing effect, may say it looks fake and not natural as it adds smooth motion and depth to the image. However when you get used to it its very hard to go back to a TV without one as the juddering is extremely noticable. And when paying a premium for a TV you want it to have the best motion processor and its upto you if you turn it on or off.
   


Intelligent frame creation (Panasonic) and Motion Plus (Samsung) are frame interpolation features and are completely optional functions. Most people who have discerning taste will disable this feature. The absence of it, or disabling it does not result in framerate hitching on a TV that is functioning correctly.

If this is missing on the D8000 (and I'm only taking your word it is), then Samsung have clearly recognised that customers wanting to buy their flagship plasma are generally in the demographic of consumers who do not share your love of interpolation.




I don't think you are aware of what we are talking about, You need to see the difference for yourself before making any more comments other wise we will be going round in circles.

For you to say if you were looking at two TV's and one was juddering and one was smooth you would pick the juddering one everytime because you are a person of discerning taste? That doesn't seem right.

What model TV do you have?




67 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 490224 6-Jul-2011 19:33
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fahrenheit, I think you're kind of missing the point. Regardless of what the terminology is for the issue, the fact of the matter is that video games look like crap on this TV. As a result it's not functioning correctly in my opinion. I agree that overly smooth playback is ugly, but high levels of ghosting/judder is much much less acceptable, and selling a TV that can't perform what I would consider a very standard, common function should be frowned upon.

 
 
 
 


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 490228 6-Jul-2011 19:52
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The irony is...
If you'd never read this thread you probably wouldn't have noticed.
Now, when you get a new TV (another brand for instance) you won't be able to stop yourself from looking for faults. For instance... you'll get a Panasonic GT30 and then start noticing an overly yellow tinge to skin tones, or issues with 24p playback...
The only way out of it? Buy the cheapest piece of crap you can find and just accept that it's a terrible TV. :-)

750 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 490231 6-Jul-2011 19:58
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Bolly:
I don't think you are aware of what we are talking about, You need to see the difference for yourself before making any more comments other wise we will be going round in circles.

For you to say if you were looking at two TV's and one was juddering and one was smooth you would pick the juddering one everytime because you are a person of discerning taste? That doesn't seem right.

What model TV do you have?



The two replies following your first post in this thread are both questioning the statements made by you about "judders". Your qualification for that statement seems to come from what you saw while standing in a shop.
You equate motion interpolation (creating 'between' frames to smooth out motion) as something that is positive. People serious above video integrity do not. Please show me one professional review that does not pour scorn on such a feature.

The OP has clearly stated that film sources are "Flawless". Gaming however is an entirely different animal and highlights some issues that most modern plasmas have to deal with.

I own a 50" Panasonic V10 plasma fyi.

nzskater: fahrenheit, I think you're kind of missing the point. Regardless of what the terminology is for the issue, the fact of the matter is that video games look like crap on this TV. As a result it's not functioning correctly in my opinion. I agree that overly smooth playback is ugly, but high levels of ghosting/judder is much much less acceptable, and selling a TV that can't perform what I would consider a very standard, common function should be frowned upon.


As I said earlier on in the thread, what you are seeing (ghosting) is one of the problems with 30fps games and its very abrupt on plasmas with lateral motion (panning). Some people aren't at all bothered by it (I count myself as one of them), others however find it is a dealbreaker. If you see this on the Samsung, then you will see it on the Panasonics too unfortunately.

You may be able to reduce the effect by getting some more ambient lighting in the room and easing up on the contrast a bit, but chance are that if this bothers you now, it will continue to do so.

My main concern is that you may have had a panel fault but I'm confident its more of a matter of taste.
Definitely take along the game to your retailer and try another panel if you want to be certain, but its not likely going to be any better.


68 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 490321 6-Jul-2011 22:23
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fahrenheit:
Bolly:
I don't think you are aware of what we are talking about, You need to see the difference for yourself before making any more comments other wise we will be going round in circles.

For you to say if you were looking at two TV's and one was juddering and one was smooth you would pick the juddering one everytime because you are a person of discerning taste? That doesn't seem right.

What model TV do you have?



The two replies following your first post in this thread are both questioning the statements made by you about "judders". Your qualification for that statement seems to come from what you saw while standing in a shop.
You equate motion interpolation (creating 'between' frames to smooth out motion) as something that is positive. People serious above video integrity do not. Please show me one professional review that does not pour scorn on such a feature.

The OP has clearly stated that film sources are "Flawless". Gaming however is an entirely different animal and highlights some issues that most modern plasmas have to deal with.

I own a 50" Panasonic V10 plasma fyi.

nzskater: fahrenheit, I think you're kind of missing the point. Regardless of what the terminology is for the issue, the fact of the matter is that video games look like crap on this TV. As a result it's not functioning correctly in my opinion. I agree that overly smooth playback is ugly, but high levels of ghosting/judder is much much less acceptable, and selling a TV that can't perform what I would consider a very standard, common function should be frowned upon.


As I said earlier on in the thread, what you are seeing (ghosting) is one of the problems with 30fps games and its very abrupt on plasmas with lateral motion (panning). Some people aren't at all bothered by it (I count myself as one of them), others however find it is a dealbreaker. If you see this on the Samsung, then you will see it on the Panasonics too unfortunately.

You may be able to reduce the effect by getting some more ambient lighting in the room and easing up on the contrast a bit, but chance are that if this bothers you now, it will continue to do so.

My main concern is that you may have had a panel fault but I'm confident its more of a matter of taste.
Definitely take along the game to your retailer and try another panel if you want to be certain, but its not likely going to be any better.



You still don't get it, You need to see with your own eyes rather than quoting figures and reviews and how processors work.
Even the old guy standing behind me in the store was taken a back as he never thought there there was such a major difference in TV performance.
I never trust any review only my own eyes, I agree that film is flawless in its highest quality but what the TV can do with it is a different story. You can't tell me that motion processing isn't important in a TV, if that was the case we would all be happy with 50Hz LED's because 50Hz is the PAL standard so why would a TV need anymore? 

The fact is the TV he has brought lacks a feature that should make it one of the best TV's out there, its not faulty. The only Tv's that will look better are the ones I stated earlyer.

This topic is now going in circles.

Im done.

750 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 490341 6-Jul-2011 23:09
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Bolly:

You still don't get it, You need to see with your own eyes rather than quoting figures and reviews and how processors work.
Even the old guy standing behind me in the store was taken a back as he never thought there there was such a major difference in TV performance.


I've probably seen more of the displays in question than you or this old guy combined. None have given me any impression that I must reach for the remote and enable interpolation to make the motion more palatable.

I never trust any review only my own eyes, I agree that film is flawless in its highest quality but what the TV can do with it is a different story.


He was referring to film sources playing back on his TV as being flawless. Not 'film' - the flickering thing in your local cinema.

You can't tell me that motion processing isn't important in a TV, if that was the case we would all be happy with 50Hz LED's because 50Hz is the PAL standard so why would a TV need anymore?


I have never said that motion processing isn't important. Its of huge importance. However, we disagree on what constitutes good and bad processing. Interpolation (motion plus/Intelligent frame creation etc) = bad processing.
You can argue personal taste and that is fine, but that taste isn't shared by everyone.

The fact is the TV he has brought lacks a feature that should make it one of the best TV's out there, its not faulty. The only Tv's that will look better are the ones I stated earlyer.


You may wish to play games with crippling lag due to the post-processing delays that interpolation brings, but I certainly do not. Game mode on all TVs that feature interpolation would have this feature enabled if it was as crucial as you are making it out to be, but they don't. They disable it. Cause its bad for gaming.



67 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 490360 6-Jul-2011 23:44
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On a side note, I went and had a chat to the store today who is going to in turn call Samsung to discuss and get some feedback from them.

While I was there I had a look at the 8 series LED's; my god they're horrid compared to this set! After having a Plasma for a week I see what a difference it makes.

Also, tried a few more games tonight; most seem to have the same issue, but 1 did not. I assume that as you've said it's lower frame rates causing the problem. Still not happy but glad to get closer to a cause, even if there is no fix.

750 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 490372 6-Jul-2011 23:59
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nzskater:
Also, tried a few more games tonight; most seem to have the same issue, but 1 did not. I assume that as you've said it's lower frame rates causing the problem. Still not happy but glad to get closer to a cause, even if there is no fix.


What was the game? Sounds like a 60fps title. The Call of Duty series are all 60fps titles. A great comparison is one of those titles vs Battlefield Bad Company 2 (which is a 30fps title and by fast the worst looking thing I've ever played on my plasma).

This is BF:BC2 on my plasma and dell 24" LCD standing on the spot and spinning around at full lock.
The plasma is on top and the LCD below.

Try doing that in a COD game and it will look significantly better.

124 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 491740 10-Jul-2011 19:45
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I had a PS50C7000 until the earthquake took it from me, now, c/o EQC, I have a PS51D8000

I have skimmed through the thread and I do see a lot of uneducated opinions being tossed around.

Firstly, how on earth you make a reasonable judgement on a shi*ty off-camera video on youtube is beyond me.

Secondly, source, source and more sauce! Killzone 3 = unflattering image when you move the camera around. L.A Noire = far better. Racket and Clank and GT5 = pure beauty.

I watch a lot of movies, both Blu-ray and other HD content and I've never had a problem with judder.

The motion judder processing was removed because it in fact made the image look WORSE on the 2010 sets. It created the so called Soap-opera effect where everything appears too smooth. And as has been mentioned it particularly struggles (they all do, all brands) with shots that have a static background and moving subject.

Its well known that the smoothing technologies are primarily built for LCD TVs where they need a bit of a boost in that department.

The D8000 is hands down a better TV, however I loved the C7000 too except for the two drawbacks as below.

Two key improvements;

Black levels are better and image retention is almost non-existent. It was noticeable on the C7000 after leaving a static game menu up for 15-20 minutes although it wasn't really a problem as it would clear within seconds of the image changing.

I miss the dark bezel of the C7000 but the new thinner frame makes up for that.

As for day-time watching - you really need to try it to understand personally I think it performs better than any LCD I've seen, in fact you may notice some of the new LED/LCDs are coming out with glossy screens how, simply because colours appear nice on them. The reflection filter does a really good job, note in my case its a reasonably but not extremely bright room and does have a small window directly opposite the TV, the reflection from this window is noticeable and not ideal when it's bright outside however all other reflections appear as black. A lot of people think all plasmas are glass mirrors but you need to understand there is a MASSIVE difference between the cheap 42" screens and the high-end models.

Another con; The remote is a POS. Why they'd put so much effort into the "QWERTY" side makes me wonder :\. Luckily I still have my remote form the C7000 which is a great remote.

Here is a couple of photos, I can take a day-time one if anyone cares:









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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 491763 10-Jul-2011 20:50
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The thing is...
Samsung have removed the ability to add / control motion processing. In doing so, they've decided to take away the control from the end user, so some people cannot get the result they're looking for.
No TV is perfect, but having seen scrolling text on DVB-T, it's pretty clear that there are some motion issues with the new PS50 / PS55D8000's - and it WILL turn off some people. Much in the same way that CD's turn off vinyl lovers... or the hassle of vinyl turns off FLAC fanatics.



67 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 492552 12-Jul-2011 16:17
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Crowbar: Firstly, how on earth you make a reasonable judgement on a shi*ty off-camera video on youtube is beyond me.

Secondly, source, source and more sauce! Killzone 3 = unflattering image when you move the camera around. L.A Noire = far better. Racket and Clank and GT5 = pure beauty.

Given I captured the (rather sh*t I admit) video of games running on the PS51D8000 I think I can pass judgement :) If anything it hides the issue, it looks much worse in person.

Agree that the source is the issue. My issue is that I've purchased a top tier television that can't deal with what I would say is a very well established and common place source. If adding post processing is a solution for this then so be it; I'd rather use frame interpolation and suffer the increased lag and hit to image quality than have to get an LCD. Although this applies ONLY to video games, it's a pointless and ugly feature for movies, why anyone would use it I have no idea.

I'm now faced with three options; try it on a different brand plasma, go for an LCD or just live with having 75% of video games looking hideous.

235 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 494479 18-Jul-2011 09:38
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I've been looking at the PS64D8000 as I have a rather large wall to fill. The functionality options of these TV's are great, but I guess they add to the overall cost, is anyone aware of any manufacturer offering  a standard large screen plasma screen? I get all the functionality I need out of my HTPC.

 




this is a slap in the face!

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 494498 18-Jul-2011 10:12
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shadybrothers: I've been looking at the PS64D8000 as I have a rather large wall to fill. The functionality options of these TV's are great, but I guess they add to the overall cost, is anyone aware of any manufacturer offering  a standard large screen plasma screen? I get all the functionality I need out of my HTPC.

 


It doesn't add to the overall cost. TVs have never been cheaper.

People often declare the same sentiments with 3D. They don't want to pay for a feature they don't care for. Only problem is, that the best 2D TVs going forwards are also 3D capable TVs. If you want a barebones panel then professional series gear will be your only option. Unfortunately that will cost you more than the flagship consumer models.

I do sympathize with you though. I'd much rather manufacturers concentrated on more important things like picture quality, eliminating fan noise or power supply buzzing, or giving end users better access to calibration controls and making sure that at least one mode was within a stones throw of some degree of accuracy out of the box.
But none of that sells TVs to the general public. People love the idea of using Skype on their TV but abandon it after using it once or finding out they need to buy an additional wireless dongle...

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 494503 18-Jul-2011 10:20
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I'd hunt out one of last years Panasonic S series plasmas if you can...
Should be going cheap, and will be either 58" or 65" - see what you can find?


750 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 494508 18-Jul-2011 10:24
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Dunnersfella: I'd hunt out one of last years Panasonic S series plasmas if you can...
Should be going cheap, and will be either 58" or 65" - see what you can find?



If size/price is all that matters, then sure. Don't expect it to look good though.

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