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Topic # 87779 7-Aug-2011 01:17
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OK, I know there are a LOT of tv threads already on here, trouble is most of them focus on the LCD vs plasma vs LED LCD vs 3D vs FULL HD debate.  and most of those debates end in flagships vs flagships.  While the latest samsungs on display at the local JB-HIFI, I have to say look stunning with theire lovely thin silver screens and bright vibrancy, I dont have 5k.



Here are the circumstances -

1. This is predominantly for gaming experience - im happy watching tv3 on my current 'flatscreen' CRT, I feel violently ill every time I play LA Noire via composite.

2. Midrange pricing, for me, means $800-2200, or $1200-1800, or around $1500.

3. Midrange sizing, for me, means 38"-55", or 42"-50", or 46"

4. Yes I do have light in my room because I have a)windows and b)lights - both of which can glare out my current 'flatscreen' CRT.  However, in saying that gaming takes place mostly at night, as does tv watching, so its not that bigger a deal (I am referring to the plasma's glare up issue), and am not willing to sacrifice quality for glare paranoia (altho that would suck bigtime).


Here is what I think I know -

1. Plasma's were first, then came LCD.

2. Then LED LCD, then 3D.

3. Plasma's are good and have good blacks and contrast but can glare up and lag some when gaming.

4. LCD's are trying to compete with plasma's but do not have the natural contrast of plasma's or motion rate, but are fairly impervious to sunlight glare and somehow do not lag as much when gaming.

5. LED was originally a backlighting of LCD to compete with plasma's contrast, but is now taking over as some think it has the potential to be the best of both worlds.

6. 3D TV's are available in both formats and are either 3D ready or FULL 3D ????

7. Because Plasma is a dying bread you seem to get a good deal on them.

8. Panasonic = plasma

9. Sony = LCD

10. Samsung = both


Here is what I do know -

1. My friend had a 42"plasma hdready (pany) tv, and it seemed pretty big and pretty sweet compared to what im dealing with here.

2. When you goto jb hifi you notice some tv's look better than others, but at home there wont be other tv's next to mine. there will just be mine.

3. JB HIFI seems to have some pretty sweet deals on tv's.

4. 3DTV is a new and interesting concept.

5. Good brands are good because they are good.


Here is what I think I want -

1. I pretty much wana 46", but id rather have a 42" if noticable better picture quality for the same price.

2. It must look good for gaming and be around $1500.

3. It would seem that are panasonic plasma would be a good buy.

4. FULL HD.

5. No Lag.

6. Little Glare.

7. Good Brand.


Here is what I think are good deals -

KDL40CX520 Sony LCD 40" $800

TH-P42U30Z Panasonic Plasma 42" $1000

TH-L42E3Z Panasonic LED LCD 42" $1200

50PV250 LG Plasma 50" $1400

TH-L42E30Z Panasonic LED LCD 42" $1600

KDL46EX520 Sony LED LCD 46" $1700

LA46D550K7MXRD Samsung 46" LCD $1700

TH-P50U30Z Panasonic Plasma 50" $1700

UA46D5500RMXRD Samsung 46" LCD $1800


Here is what I do want -

1. A tv for not that much that looks decent.


Here is what I will probably do -

1. Goto JB HIFI when they advertise a goodlooking 46" or 42" special deal on their website for around however much I have saved before the end of october (when BF3 comes out).


Here is what I will do -

1. Buy an HDTV one day.


Here is what I think I want from you guys -

1. A light hearted discussion based on the amount of quality tv's out there for seemingly cheap amongst a globalised and ongoing economic crises and food shortage.

2. A slightly less light hearted discussion on the pros and cons of - LCD vs LED vs Plasma

3. Your views on 3D technology including why you need glasses, which tv's support 2D signal to 3D, is gaming in 3D just too intense, etc.

4. An insightful discussion on the various retailers and brands

5. A great looking HD gaming experience for under 2 grand

Here is what I do want from you guys -

1. Tell me what to buy please.

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  Reply # 502882 7-Aug-2011 08:19
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7. Because Plasma is a dying bread you seem to get a good deal on them.

That ones cropped up before. There doesn't seem to be any recent info to back this, ie look at Panasonic/Samsung offerings etc.

Size, well where you are putting it plays a big impact on this. Too big and it's silly, like using a 50" as a computer monitor, but too small is unfortunate too. Size matters. Full HD resolution doesn't get any finer as the screen size increases, so essentially the pixels are just getting fatter the bigger the TV gets. Ask around here for what size people are using for a given distance back from the screen etc.

Remember that LED TV's are fundamentally still LCD, just with a different form of back lighting. But, being new models they should have advanced everything anyway though. Computer monitors are this technology, so with regards to gaming, perhaps there's something in that.

Re gaming though, if you haven't got some form of surround sound going then you might want to look at including that in an upgrade too? Sorry, all generic stuff here.

Oh yeah, 3D requires every component to be 3D capable, and maybe even the hdmi cables to be changed as well. Can be quite costly if you aren't geared up for it.

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  Reply # 502894 7-Aug-2011 09:00
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conma293:


Here is what I will probably do -

1. Goto JB HIFI when they advertise a goodlooking 46" or 42" special deal on their website for around however much I have saved before the end of october (when BF3 comes out).
.


Before you go to JB go to 2 or 3 others and ask for their best price.
Then go to JB and ask for their best deal.
I did this and the first question they asked was "What price am I trying to beat and from whom?"
Result was 25% off Sony's listed price.
Going in with a list for multiple puchases (TV, DVD Recorder etc) does even better.
Worked for me.

Sony EX520 is the bottom end of their range and you get what you pay for. Perxonally I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole. If you are a gamer then you will probably eventually want 3D. I bought a Sony EX720 3D and it's great. Doesn't come with Glasses but they have now dropped in price from $150 to $100 a pair and plenty around on Trademe. I don't use 3D yet but it's there and ready for use when I want it and didn't break the bank.
I had a look at one of the new 46" Passive 3D TVs yesterday that uses the polarised glasses you use in Cinemas. Don't even go there. The individual lines are clearly visible (like on an old CRT) as I belive each alternating frame is only half the 1080 HD picture so doesn't look HD. Just didn't compare with the Sony 3D and didn't work for me.

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  Reply # 502897 7-Aug-2011 09:16
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Since you are concerned about glare, you would have noticed Plasmas have a glass front, and have varying levels of reflectiveness, and even some LED TVs have at least a semi-gloss coating which can make them appear more saturated.

As for lag, this can be different even with the same model of TV depending on which software revision they are on.  It is usually best practice to use the game mode, or manually disable most types of image enhancement to reduce the level of lag (such as MEMC motion processing etc).

Most 2011 3D LED TVs support 2D to 3D conversion, which is improved on last year - however for maximum depth you obviously want native 3D content MKV/BD/PS3.  I have used heaps of no-name cheap old HDMI cables (v1.3), and I haven't had any issues with 3D yet.  The glasses are a necessary evil at this point to enable you to see the two separate frames without staring at a blurry mess.  There is a list of 3D capable games here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stereoscopic_video_games

You will find that most newer TVs support more codecs than your console ever will (and without the fans), either over USB or DLNA, so be aware of that when you select your TV too.

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  Reply # 502900 7-Aug-2011 09:28
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B1GGLZ:
conma293:


Here is what I will probably do -

1. Goto JB HIFI when they advertise a goodlooking 46" or 42" special deal on their website for around however much I have saved before the end of october (when BF3 comes out).
.


Before you go to JB go to 2 or 3 others and ask for their best price.
Then go to JB and ask for their best deal.
I did this and the first question they asked was "What price am I trying to beat and from whom?"
Result was 25% off Sony's listed price.
Going in with a list for multiple puchases (TV, DVD Recorder etc) does even better.
Worked for me.

Sony EX520 is the bottom end of their range and you get what you pay for. Perxonally I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole. If you are a gamer then you will probably eventually want 3D. I bought a Sony EX720 3D and it's great. Doesn't come with Glasses but they have now dropped in price from $150 to $100 a pair and plenty around on Trademe. I don't use 3D yet but it's there and ready for use when I want it and didn't break the bank.
I had a look at one of the new 46" Passive 3D TVs yesterday that uses the polarised glasses you use in Cinemas. Don't even go there. The individual lines are clearly visible (like on an old CRT) as I belive each alternating frame is only half the 1080 HD picture so doesn't look HD. Just didn't compare with the Sony 3D and didn't work for me.


You are still getting 1080 lines of resolution with the Passive 3D, this is 540 per eye, or 1080 through both eyes, as opposed to 1080 through one eye at a time (Active Shutter).  If you are very close to the TV or at an extreme vertical angle to the TV it is possible to see lines.  However at a natural viewing distance this shouldn't be noticable. Overall I prefer the effect to the previous generation due to flickering, especially if the room is not dark.

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  Reply # 502913 7-Aug-2011 09:54
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We cannot judge too much by how a TV looks in the shop. They're under thousands of watts of CFL glare and are on the default vivid modes with ultra-saturated colours while running 1080p demos.

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  Reply # 502939 7-Aug-2011 11:17
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conma293:

3. Plasma's are good and have good blacks and contrast but can glare up and lag some when gaming.

4. LCD's are trying to compete with plasma's but do not have the natural contrast of plasma's or motion rate, but are fairly impervious to sunlight glare and somehow do not lag as much when gaming.


You have this wrong. Plasmas are superior in terms of pure response times. There are other differences between the technologies that you may fine more or less desirable when gaming (depending on your susceptibility), but as far as you moving the controller and seeing the result on screen, plasma is the winner.


1. Tell me what to buy please.


I think you shouldn't touch the U30 Panasonic plasma and consider the ST30 instead. It is superior in every regard and its anti-reflective coating should meet your requirements (something the U30 doesn't feature at all). You have 3D if you want it and some cheaper 3rd gen Panasonic glasses are on their way to market.
But also, you will have the best gaming response time of any panel on the market currently. Even the GT30 and VT30 can't match it for lag performance.

As bfginger has already said, you cannot judge any of these displays in store.

Contrast is one of the most important (and misunderstood) aspects of picture quality. It is a measurement of the displays deepest darkest black and brightest whitest white.
Unfortunately since CRT went the way of the Dodo, manufacturers have been covering up the fact that their displays can't render deep black by offsetting it with stupidly bright white.

Having very bright white in the picture will cause our pupils to constrict, letting less light in. This will make the darker elements of the picture look like they are darker than they really are. Unfortunately when there are dark scenes that have little or no bright elements, we get to see how truely lacking modern displays cope at doing deep black. The high contrast white is there to fool us into thinking our display has a better contrast ratio than it truely has.

So with that in mind, you need to really consider your viewing habits as to what is important. A room bathed in daylight or ceiling lights at night will need high contrast (white) to compensate. Its ability to render black will be less important as the additional ambient lighting will fool your eyes. In a dark setting, you'll want a display that can go as black as possible and its peak white levels will be of less value.

Plasmas superior black level performance is offset by its poorer peak white performance, LCD/LED poorer black level performance is offset by its superior peak white performance.
3D also puts more pressure on manufacturers to produce brighter panels because the glasses are tinted, meaning a display that is already a bit dim will struggle.

Brightly lit stores and factory defaults that favour that environment have done consumers a huge disservice. We've been sold a huge lie. Film/video isn't made to look like Clown Town, but thats what we've all been led to believe is desireable.

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  Reply # 502961 7-Aug-2011 12:27
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dylz:
You are still getting 1080 lines of resolution with the Passive 3D, this is 540 per eye, or 1080 through both eyes, as opposed to 1080 through one eye at a time (Active Shutter).  If you are very close to the TV or at an extreme vertical angle to the TV it is possible to see lines.  However at a natural viewing distance this shouldn't be noticable. Overall I prefer the effect to the previous generation due to flickering, especially if the room is not dark.


Didn't matter where I stood. Close up or at normal distance the lines were really noticeable and unacceptable to my viewing pleasure.
As the picture is alternating, 540 per eye = 540 for both eyes. That's not HD and is sure noticeable.
Active shutter is 1080 per eye = 1080 both eyes, not 2160.

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  Reply # 502965 7-Aug-2011 12:42
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A great resource of opinions in this thread.

Another quick consideration is the quality/grunt of the electronics doing the picture number crunching, which is quite separate to the physical response time of the panel. If the electronics aren't up to it, then panels can look great on still frames but look rubbish for movement scenes.

As above, the 'game mode' if present will look to improve this situation.

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  Reply # 502966 7-Aug-2011 12:44
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conma293:

4. An insightful discussion on the various retailers and brands
.


I have always found JB very good for the best deal. Ask their best price and then bargain for better. Make the sales rep cry. Works for me. Appliance Shed would be my second choice.

Stick to the major brands although personal preference usually plays a part here. I've always preferred Panasonic and Sony. They have excellent after sales service. Panasonic wil Region free your DVD players and recorders for free. Sony are already region free when purchased.
The lesser known brands at some retailers usually leave a lot to be desired in quality and maintenance.

Always remember you get what you pay for.


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  Reply # 503008 7-Aug-2011 16:21
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B1GGLZ:
dylz:
You are still getting 1080 lines of resolution with the Passive 3D, this is 540 per eye, or 1080 through both eyes, as opposed to 1080 through one eye at a time (Active Shutter).  If you are very close to the TV or at an extreme vertical angle to the TV it is possible to see lines.  However at a natural viewing distance this shouldn't be noticable. Overall I prefer the effect to the previous generation due to flickering, especially if the room is not dark.


Didn't matter where I stood. Close up or at normal distance the lines were really noticeable and unacceptable to my viewing pleasure.
As the picture is alternating, 540 per eye = 540 for both eyes. That's not HD and is sure noticeable.
Active shutter is 1080 per eye = 1080 both eyes, not 2160.


I was making the point that you receive 540 different lines each eye at all times, vs. 1080 per eye, but only one eye at a time, hence the flicker.

I understand it all comes down to personal preference, and if gaming is the biggest use for the TV, maybe things like viewing angle for multiplayer and refresh rate of the panel would be more important.  That being said, you would assume most 3D LCD/LED would have a decent panel in them to support the fast refresh needed to reduce crosstalk.

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  Reply # 503088 7-Aug-2011 20:07
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The Panasonic 42ST would be my pick in your situation.
Neoplasmas cost less to run, have louver filters to help with reflections, better motion, blacks etc... so yeah, easy choice in my books.

And in regarding to 'plasma being dead or dying'... I read an article that noted 40% of world wide TV sales were plasmas. And seeing as you won't get a plasma under 37" globally, or 42" in NZ, then it's hardly a technology that's going anywhere. Heck, one of the very few reasons why the industry wants to push LED is the higher price and the lower weights / small box sizes - that reduce their shipping costs.

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  Reply # 503146 7-Aug-2011 23:03
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B1GGLZ:
conma293:

4. An insightful discussion on the various retailers and brands
.


I have always found JB very good for the best deal. Ask their best price and then bargain for better. Make the sales rep cry. Works for me. Appliance Shed would be my second choice.

Stick to the major brands although personal preference usually plays a part here. I've always preferred Panasonic and Sony. They have excellent after sales service. Panasonic wil Region free your DVD players and recorders for free. Sony are already region free when purchased.
The lesser known brands at some retailers usually leave a lot to be desired in quality and maintenance.

Always remember you get what you pay for.



JB HiFi Irritate me, and some of their pricing isn't terribly competitive.

In the main,my irritation is they when their flyer comes out or you go to their website they don't list the model number. This means that you have to trek into the shop to find out, can't google for reviews or check sites like this one to find peoples' opinions on the model, and can't easily compare pricing. This make me suspicious - like they either know the models advertised aren't actually that good and/or or they know they aren't price competitive. Otherwise, they would list the model number in the ad.

This cost them some sales from me and the people I work with. I see something that looks interesting but don't bother go in to buy it because it's quite a hike, and I can't check up on it and download the manual to see features etc first.



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  Reply # 503181 8-Aug-2011 07:36
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JimmyH: JB HiFi Irritate me, and some of their pricing isn't terribly competitive.

In the main,my irritation is they when their flyer comes out or you go to their website they don't list the model number. This means that you have to trek into the shop to find out, can't google for reviews or check sites like this one to find peoples' opinions on the model, and can't easily compare pricing. This make me suspicious - like they either know the models advertised aren't actually that good and/or or they know they aren't price competitive. Otherwise, they would list the model number in the ad.

This cost them some sales from me and the people I work with. I see something that looks interesting but don't bother go in to buy it because it's quite a hike, and I can't check up on it and download the manual to see features etc first.




You could always just ring them for the model number to save you all the trouble.

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  Reply # 503199 8-Aug-2011 09:00
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JimmyH:

In the main,my irritation is they when their flyer comes out or you go to their website they don't list the model number.




I agree it is annoying that their flyers don't give model numbers but their website does give the model number. Just click on an item and you will see the model number at the bottom next to the stock unit. Then copy this in google and find the manual. Works for me.

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  Reply # 503347 8-Aug-2011 14:33
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We got a Sony 46EX500 LCD in the end of year sales last year, very happy with it.

The thing I didn't really like about the plasma's in the price range is that the glass front is very reflective, some of the other brands of LCD's have a glossy screen also. The Sony is screen is matte which I liked.

The gaming mode on the Sony is quite good, it disables a bunch of image processing to reduce response time. We have thoroughly tested this with Rock Band 3 :)

 

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