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  Reply # 74091 9-Jun-2007 11:02
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inquisitor: Running a GSM/UMTS- and a CDMA-network simultaneously is not only financally unbearable, but also technically, as Telecom's frequency spectrum is limited. That may be an interim arrangement, but in the long term - especially regarding the increase of mobile broadband usage - Telecom will definitely shut down the CDMA network and use the released spectrum for GSM/UMTS.


Telecom and Alcatel Lucent may beg to differ on that but yes CDMA may eventually go, 5 years is a long time in the industry though.






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Reply # 74099 9-Jun-2007 12:04
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*song was a bit of a hit and miss, the EVRC vocoder does not tranport music very well at all so the service got 2 out of 5 songs tested right./

I changed the vocoder in a phone to the older QCELP and tried it out and got a 100% success rate.

Used a proper test setup with a line in to the old Hyundai 310 phone (clean audio path)

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Reply # 74101 9-Jun-2007 12:12
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paradoxsm: *song was a bit of a hit and miss, the EVRC vocoder does not tranport music very well at all so the service got 2 out of 5 songs tested right./

I changed the vocoder in a phone to the older QCELP and tried it out and got a 100% success rate.

Used a proper test setup with a line in to the old Hyundai 310 phone (clean audio path)


Very off topic. But it begs the question: if the success rate was so poor, why launch the service at all?





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  Reply # 74103 9-Jun-2007 13:06
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inquisitor: Running a GSM/UMTS- and a CDMA-network simultaneously is not only financally unbearable, but also technically, as Telecom's frequency spectrum is limited. That may be an interim arrangement, but in the long term - especially regarding the increase of mobile broadband usage - Telecom will definitely shut down the CDMA network and use the released spectrum for GSM/UMTS.


Telecom's have plenty of spectrum, that's what makes things very easy for them. They own management rights to both AMPS A and AMPS B which are both 10MHz bands. CDMA uses AMPS A and their DAMPS/AMPS network used AMPS B which is now completely clear with the shutdown of their 025 network. Telecom have plenty of room for CDMA expansion as most sites are only using 4 carriers (3 for voice/rev 0 and another for rev A).

This gives them the entire 10MHz AMPS B band to run GSM in. 10MHz isn't a lot but is more than enough to run a properly designed network remembering that the bulk of users will be using the 2100MHz WCDMA network in metropolitan areas.

While Telecom's announcement of GSM/EDGE only at 850MHz and not a full WCDMA rollout came as a surprise to a lot of people it is very logical. As many analysts have pointed out the market for inbound roaming in NZ is huge - some estimates putting it as high as $200 million per year. If Telecom's 850 GSM network can capture 50% of this in coming years (remembering that most new GSM devices now are now quad band) the network will pay for itself.

Telecom have guaranteed CDMA's life for 5 years and it's pure speculation as to whether this will then be shut down and replaced with 850 WCDMA or continue to operate. The future evolution of CDMA could still see it being a far superior solution than WCDMA for delivering a broadband solution so Telecom are essentially hedging their bets on both technologies which is smart thinking.

The biggest factor that nobody seems to have yet mentioned is the management rights for existing 800 and 900 spectrum that start to expire from 2012. Both Telecom and Vodafone at at the mercy of whatever political party are in power when it comes to what will happen and how much it could potentially cost them to keep their existing spectrum. Vodafone own all the existing 900MHz GSM spectrum (3 7MHz bands) but the last 7MHz band they purchased is not up for renewal at the same time since it was purchased around 2001.


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 74107 9-Jun-2007 13:59
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Telecom's have plenty of spectrum, that's what makes things very easy for them. They own management rights to both AMPS A and AMPS B which are both 10MHz bands.


It's recently gotten more complicated than that. The MED want some of the AMPs band back, either a little now, or a lot when the management rights are up for renewal in 2012.

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  Reply # 74793 15-Jun-2007 13:20
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OK dumbar$e alert, I've read thru this discussion and its all clear as mud. 

So...

Can somebody please explain in dummy speak what exactly is going to happen?

What I understand (I think)

Currently Telecom & Vodafone use different 'networks' (like Windows and Mac?) and they arent compatible



What I dont understand

Telecom are going to introduce a 'new network' that is going to be compatible with Vodafone?

or

Is it going to be separate but can hop on / off the Vodafone network depending on what signal is available?

or

Is it something else completely?



Thanx for your time...

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  Reply # 74795 15-Jun-2007 13:44
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to answer your question both telecom and vodaphone will use similar handsets/phones/devices that utilise a GSM or variant type network. What will happen is both companies will more than likely lock their phones ( the one you buy or get from the company) to their network only. However you may be able to buy your own phone from overseas that is not locked and use it with both companies. The problem that arises is that there is no clear answer on what type of frequency they will choose. Its a bit like your radio station each station is assisned a radio frequency for thier use only. They will want to ensure you cant get a phone from vodaphone then set yourself up with voda. It will be a wait and see. What is noticeable is that telecom are using phones like the samsung 531 that can work on both networks and that more of these type phones are on the way, i suppose this way they can in the short term use the existing network and new network at the same time without having the problem that was faced when the 025 was shut down and you had to buy a new phone.

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  Reply # 74803 15-Jun-2007 14:34
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n00dy: The problem that arises is that there is no clear answer on what type of frequency they will choose.


This has been pointed out in all of Telecom's Press Releases. It will be a WCDMA 2100Mhz 3G network in metropolitan areas and 850MHz GSM with EDGE overlay in the rest of the country.


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  Reply # 74804 15-Jun-2007 14:35
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n00dy:

Telecom are going to introduce a 'new network' that is going to be compatible with Vodafone?

or

Is it going to be separate but can hop on / off the Vodafone network depending on what signal is available?


From a technical standpoint, Telecom is building a new network that is compatible with the Vodafone network.

Telecom is building a GSM/EDGE/UMTS network - essentially, this is the same [at a basic level] as the Vodafone network, which is GSM/UMTS. The two networks will use the same 3G frequency (2100MHz) - but different frequencies for GSM/EDGE (Vodafone does not offer EDGE).

The network will also be a separate network, but people from one network will be able to 'hop on/off' the other network if:

a) Telecom and Vodafone have a roaming agreement (unlikely, although I may be wrong). Most people wouldn't know about this through day-to-day usage unless there were excessive roaming charges (wouldn't surprise me).

b) People with unlocked handsets buy a sim card from each provider and switch when necessary/as they feel.




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  Reply # 74808 15-Jun-2007 14:48
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sbiddle:
n00dy: The problem that arises is that there is no clear answer on what type of frequency they will choose.


This has been pointed out in all of Telecom's Press Releases. It will be a WCDMA 2100Mhz 3G network in metropolitan areas and 850MHz GSM with EDGE overlay in the rest of the country.



still trying to find where they actually say that - they mention a blend, some sources in the industry believe they will run both GSM and WCDMA on both 2100mhz and 850mhz so it will be intersting to see. The only media release stating this Juha's which was the first to break the news. That release mentioned the WCDMA / HSPA @ 2100mhz and GSM /EDGE @ 850mhz. But that has not been confirmed by TNZ yet. They are keeping pretty quiet about the details.






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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 74809 15-Jun-2007 14:54
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n00dy: to answer your question both telecom and vodaphone will use similar handsets/phones/devices that utilise a GSM or variant type network. What will happen is both companies will more than likely lock their phones ( the one you buy or get from the company) to their network only. However you may be able to buy your own phone from overseas that is not locked and use it with both companies.


In countries with multiple GSM networks, the phone companies "lock" the handsets so they can't be used on another network - blatant anti-competitive behaviour, if you ask me.  This is on top of the fact they'd tend to lock customers into 1 or 2 year contracts (typically this is to be able to offer cheap handsets to lure new customers).  However, lots of people want to keep their phones and switch to a different network to take advantage of better deals, so this has made the unlocking of handsets into a large "grey-market" activity.  When I was living in the UK, you'd take your phone down to the local market on the weekend and some dodgy guy with a bunch of cables and a laptop would unlock it for 5 pounds.

If phones that work on both networks are prevalent in NZ, I imagine we'll get Vodafone and Telecom locking their phones as well.




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  Reply # 74811 15-Jun-2007 15:00
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Telecom and Alcatel have confirmed the details already, so yes, 850MHz GSM/EDGE and 2100MHz HSPA.

As for Unlocked Phones... the campaign starts now. I don't know how common 850/900MHz GSM phones will be, but if they become available, they should not be permitted to be locked into a single provider.




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  Reply # 74813 15-Jun-2007 15:05
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juha: Telecom and Alcatel have confirmed the details already, so yes, 850MHz GSM/EDGE and 2100MHz HSPA.

As for Unlocked Phones... the campaign starts now. I don't know how common 850/900MHz GSM phones will be, but if they become available, they should not be permitted to be locked into a single provider.


cool, thats cleared it up then. I guess the rumours of EVDO Rev A being loaded at all new sites and then all sites within 12 months are possibly true..? If they are talking up a the best mobile broadband solution, unparrelled and not going WCDMA 850 then thats the only way they will compete with VNZ's 900mhz network coming soon.





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  Reply # 74816 15-Jun-2007 15:11
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There's an interesting Wiki article on SIM locks for GSM networks here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_lock



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  Reply # 74820 15-Jun-2007 15:19
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mjsit&t:
sbiddle:
n00dy: The problem that arises is that there is no clear answer on what type of frequency they will choose.


This has been pointed out in all of Telecom's Press Releases. It will be a WCDMA 2100Mhz 3G network in metropolitan areas and 850MHz GSM with EDGE overlay in the rest of the country.



still trying to find where they actually say that - they mention a blend, some sources in the industry believe they will run both GSM and WCDMA on both 2100mhz and 850mhz so it will be intersting to see. The only media release stating this Juha's which was the first to break the news. That release mentioned the WCDMA / HSPA @ 2100mhz and GSM /EDGE @ 850mhz. But that has not been confirmed by TNZ yet. They are keeping pretty quiet about the details.

 



Well there is no GSM 2100MHz so that instantly rules that out.

In regards to the 850MHz Telecom could potentially run both GSM and UMTS in their AMPS B spectrum but it would seem crazy to do that, they're far better off just sticking with GSM because the added bandwidth that WCDMA will offer isn't a big deal as they will have EDGE and have an existing CDMA network that will still be running in parallel. Within 5 years time WCDMA LTE will be reality and Telecom can dump their GSM and skip a whole generation of WCMDA gear that would all be obsolete had they gone that way and have a great network.

Going 100% 850MHz WCDMA would be a stupid decision since one of the key factors that necessitated this build was the issue of roaming. So few people have 850MHz WCDMA handsets that the market for inbound roaming customers would be very small whereas most GSM handsets these days are all 850 GSM capable and a large % sold in the past 1-2 years are as well.

To quote from the initial Telecom press release


Coverage and spectrum use
Coverage will be provided utilising a blend of WCDMA/HSPA at 2100 MHz and GSM/EDGE at 850 MHz technologies.

In particular, 850 MHz spectrum will be utilised to ensure strong rural coverage is achieved, with 2100 MHz employed largely in cities and large metropolitan areas.



This makes it pretty clear it's a 2100MHz WCMDA network and a 850 GSM/EDGE network, I'm not sure why so many people seem to be confuded about it.




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