Do I need a Master Splitter for BigPipe VDSL?

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › Do I need a Master Splitter for BigPipe VDSL?

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sbiddle

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#1004673 13-Mar-2014 08:38

NonprayingMantis:
sbiddle seem to be getting much more emotional about this than last year when snap were doing no filter installs, or full flavor were doing no filter installs. Why is that? Big pipe is surely way smaller than they are, (well, smaller than snap anyway for sure) having only launched last month. The trial isn't even finished yet.

I openly criticised Snap for their policy, and Orcon for not automatically moving newly cabinetised customers off their ULL connections and instead leaving them with a substandard connection due to mid point injection.

This issue is a customer experience one. Many NZers think they have a sub standard internet product, but in reality (unless you're stuck on a Conklin or some ASAMs) the vast majority should have a world class connection. 99% of people are completely oblivious to what is required to ensure their connection is as good as it should be, and ignorant of the fact their internal wiring (that the property owner is responsible for) could be a major factor that will affect the speed and/or performance of their internet connection. There are people in this world who spend their whole life changing ISPs because they simply don't understand (and shouldn't be expected to) understand how the technology works.

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Stan

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#1004711 13-Mar-2014 10:11

Sbiddle quick question. I had a naked VDSL connection with 2 jack points in the house with no splitter and I was syncing around 48mbps no Issues.
Coffeebaron came round to help finish wiring my house with cat 6 and disconnected my 2nd line and my sync rate shot up to 55mbit or so, now I have switched to telecom and have a pots line with a mater filter and my sync rate has dropped to 43mbit.
Why is my sync rate lower with a master filter?

timbosan

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#1004733 13-Mar-2014 10:41

Are there any real world stats available on what the impact of having no filter is on your own connection or on others? 1%? 10%? 50%?

(I have bigpipe vdsl, and already had a filter from my previous telecom vdsl, so pretty happy I don't have a second, totally pointless, filter built into the price of my connection)

Wow quite some comments on here! When I started this topic the above is what I was looking for, however I should have been more careful in defining the scope. What I SHOULD have asked (as it applied to me) is: If I have proper wiring from the demarc to the jackpoint (which I do thanks to coffeebaron) and I have only a single jackpoint (which I do) and I am using a naked service (which I am) then what is the impact, both on my own line and the line of others in the area, from not having a master splitter/filter?

Also it seems I do have a VDSL filter and not just an ADSL2 one (thanks to forward thinking by coffeebaron) so even though the point may be moot, I (and others) are still interested. Can someone explain the 'echo' that has been mentioned? Does this traverse the wider network a line is connected so, say at the cabinet level?

Peppery

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#1004734 13-Mar-2014 10:41

hio77:

how long ago was this installed though?

the "hate" as you put it, is because the provider themselves down talks a filter as not being a crucial part of a vdsl installation considering what the average household is like.

chorus not installing a filter, if they were meant to, is a whole different kettle of fish.

Installed late January 2014.

Cymro

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#1004735 13-Mar-2014 10:42

To add a little bit of info here from:

Chorus WVS with install = UBA price + $5 for 30 months, Chorus bears responsibility/costs for sub-par performance or wiring/install.

Chorus WVS without install = UBA price, ISP/customer bears responsibility for sub-par performance or wiring (Truck roll @$150?)

So if you have already had VDSL from another provider, and had a full install, there is no harm in moving to BigPipe.

NonprayingMantis

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#1004741 13-Mar-2014 10:46

sbiddle:
NonprayingMantis:
sbiddle seem to be getting much more emotional about this than last year when snap were doing no filter installs, or full flavor were doing no filter installs. Why is that? Big pipe is surely way smaller than they are, (well, smaller than snap anyway for sure) having only launched last month. The trial isn't even finished yet.

I openly criticised Snap for their policy, and Orcon for not automatically moving newly cabinetised customers off their ULL connections and instead leaving them with a substandard connection due to mid point injection.

sure, but you did it in a rational an non-emotive way that allowed useful discussion and debate to happen.

You didn't immediately jump and say they were 'dumb dumb dumb' and the 'biggest fail since telecom moved to yahoo for email', and you didn't write a blog saying 'Buyer beware with Snap VDSL'
And there have been multiple instances on geekzone of chorus techs telling customers of other ISPs that a filter is not needed because it is naked VDSL, and whilst you have said that is incorrect, you haven't blogged or insulted them.

I'm just saying that this kind of attitude is not going to achieve much if you want to have an actual discussion about the need for filters

On the other hand, if all you want to do is rant and insult people, then you've certainly done that.

This issue is a customer experience one. Many NZers think they have a sub standard internet product, but in reality (unless you're stuck on a Conklin or some ASAMs) the vast majority should have a world class connection. 99% of people are completely oblivious to what is required to ensure their connection is as good as it should be, and ignorant of the fact their internal wiring (that the property owner is responsible for) could be a major factor that will affect the speed and/or performance of their internet connection. There are people in this world who spend their whole life changing ISPs because they simply don't understand (and shouldn't be expected to) understand how the technology works.

Right, but how much is the impact actually going to be when we are talking VDSL? I'm genuinely interested because all I have seen so far is statements that there is an effect but nothing about how much.

The example above (sample of one and anecdotal of course) shows a person went from 48Mbps to 55Mbps when they got coffeebaron to put a filter in. 7Mbps is a nice improvement for sure, but 48Mbps is still pretty damn good and hardly 'sub-standard'.

sbiddle

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#1004781 13-Mar-2014 11:20

Stan: Sbiddle quick question. I had a naked VDSL connection with 2 jack points in the house with no splitter and I was syncing around 48mbps no Issues.
Coffeebaron came round to help finish wiring my house with cat 6 and disconnected my 2nd line and my sync rate shot up to 55mbit or so, now I have switched to telecom and have a pots line with a mater filter and my sync rate has dropped to 43mbit.
Why is my sync rate lower with a master filter?

It seems that crosstalk is causing some impact on VDSL2 services in some MPF bundles, meaning people are seeing sync rates gradually decrease. Are you using the same modem? Performance can also differ between modems.

coffeebaron

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#1005120 13-Mar-2014 18:52

timbosan:

Are there any real world stats available on what the impact of having no filter is on your own connection or on others? 1%? 10%? 50%?

(I have bigpipe vdsl, and already had a filter from my previous telecom vdsl, so pretty happy I don't have a second, totally pointless, filter built into the price of my connection)

Wow quite some comments on here! When I started this topic the above is what I was looking for, however I should have been more careful in defining the scope. What I SHOULD have asked (as it applied to me) is: If I have proper wiring from the demarc to the jackpoint (which I do thanks to coffeebaron) and I have only a single jackpoint (which I do) and I am using a naked service (which I am) then what is the impact, both on my own line and the line of others in the area, from not having a master splitter/filter?

Also it seems I do have a VDSL filter and not just an ADSL2 one (thanks to forward thinking by coffeebaron) so even though the point may be moot, I (and others) are still interested. Can someone explain the 'echo' that has been mentioned? Does this traverse the wider network a line is connected so, say at the cabinet level?

Ah, that's where I saw your post; was meaning to reply. I think your splitter was done a good few years ago now and I suspect this was pre-VDSL days. A possibility it is an ADSL2 splitter. Happy to check it and do a good upgrade price for you :)

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Stan

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#1005179 13-Mar-2014 20:33

sbiddle:
Stan: Sbiddle quick question. I had a naked VDSL connection with 2 jack points in the house with no splitter and I was syncing around 48mbps no Issues.
Coffeebaron came round to help finish wiring my house with cat 6 and disconnected my 2nd line and my sync rate shot up to 55mbit or so, now I have switched to telecom and have a pots line with a mater filter and my sync rate has dropped to 43mbit.
Why is my sync rate lower with a master filter?

It seems that crosstalk is causing some impact on VDSL2 services in some MPF bundles, meaning people are seeing sync rates gradually decrease. Are you using the same modem? Performance can also differ between modems.

I did do some testing before with the modem I had now before the VDSL splitter got put in and it synced similarly to the old modem.

It sounds like bigpipe are just listening to chorus and relaying what they are saying can't really hold that against them. Perhaps they should recommend that it be installed and have tutorial about how to do it yourself on there website?

sbiddle

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#1005207 13-Mar-2014 21:00

Stan: Perhaps they should recommend that it be installed and have tutorial about how to do it yourself on there website?

In all honestly a tutorial is a terrible idea. You'll then have people who know very little about phone wiring attempting DIY install and simply breaking stuff. A little knowledge can be very dangerous.

I've installed master filters that take 5 mins. I've also installed filters and fixed wiring that I thought would take 5 mins that has taken 3+ hours by the time you're reverse engineered a complex install.

Stan

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#1005229 13-Mar-2014 21:50

sbiddle:
Stan: Perhaps they should recommend that it be installed and have tutorial about how to do it yourself on there website?

In all honestly a tutorial is a terrible idea. You'll then have people who know very little about phone wiring attempting DIY install and simply breaking stuff. A little knowledge can be very dangerous.

I've installed master filters that take 5 mins. I've also installed filters and fixed wiring that I thought would take 5 mins that has taken 3+ hours by the time you're reverse engineered a complex install.

Perhaps a large disclaimer then?

I think a as a consumer its nice to find an isp that can offer me a saving for not installing a master splitter when I can either do it myself or pay a 3rd party who I trust more (than chorus) to install it for me. Perhaps it opens up a can of worms but could it be sensibly implemented say if a consumer has only one line going in on a naked connection or is capable of installing a splitter/disconnecting other lines in there house? It could be a 5 min job and saving $5 adds up over a few years.

richms

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#1005235 13-Mar-2014 22:07

If you can do it you will work it out. If you can't then a general tutorial won't make you able to do it.

Richard rich.ms

hio77

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#1005240 13-Mar-2014 22:27

richms: If you can do it you will work it out. If you can't then a general tutorial won't make you able to do it.

exactly this.

unfortunately, some out there simply wont notice how their line is preforming and or consider it. which is why mandatory filters would be a step in the right direction..

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timbosan

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#1005275 13-Mar-2014 22:58

coffeebaron:
timbosan:

Are there any real world stats available on what the impact of having no filter is on your own connection or on others? 1%? 10%? 50%?

(I have bigpipe vdsl, and already had a filter from my previous telecom vdsl, so pretty happy I don't have a second, totally pointless, filter built into the price of my connection)

Wow quite some comments on here! When I started this topic the above is what I was looking for, however I should have been more careful in defining the scope. What I SHOULD have asked (as it applied to me) is: If I have proper wiring from the demarc to the jackpoint (which I do thanks to coffeebaron) and I have only a single jackpoint (which I do) and I am using a naked service (which I am) then what is the impact, both on my own line and the line of others in the area, from not having a master splitter/filter?

Also it seems I do have a VDSL filter and not just an ADSL2 one (thanks to forward thinking by coffeebaron) so even though the point may be moot, I (and others) are still interested. Can someone explain the 'echo' that has been mentioned? Does this traverse the wider network a line is connected so, say at the cabinet level?

Ah, that's where I saw your post; was meaning to reply. I think your splitter was done a good few years ago now and I suspect this was pre-VDSL days. A possibility it is an ADSL2 splitter. Happy to check it and do a good upgrade price for you :)

Cool! I will PM you. Bring on (even) faster speeds! (I can live in hope....)

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