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913 posts

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  Reply # 96349 22-Nov-2007 10:07
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I thought this was all addressed in the legislation. Didn't they allow subloop unbundling and mandate Telecom provide backhaul? So a new operator just has to bung a cabinet alongside a Telecom cabinet with a mini DSLAM in it, lease or install some backhaul, jumper their customers' lines across, and voila they're away.

Of course if all the operators do this we'll end up with a rows of cabinets all doing the same thing, every few blocks.




 

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  Reply # 96351 22-Nov-2007 10:09

What we're trying to do IS improve our broadband offerings by taking control of them directly. What Telecom's doing is to turn its back on 18 months worth of work by all the telcos and the Commerce Commission and basically puts us back by around two years.

I understand the frustration at hearing ISPs complaining yet again about access to Telecom's network, believe me. I gave up writing about them in part because of the high level of noise. But this is important and needs to be discussed. We have to tell Telecom and the government that this is not acceptable.

Cheers

Paul




Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 96353 22-Nov-2007 10:16
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Bung, I believe that Telecom are ditching all conventional voice circuits and replacing them with VOIP under the NGN plan. The NEAX's are on their last legs and no RFI for their replacement, however there has been major investment by Telecom to implement a complete IP based network as the core of the NGN.

Further, I think Telecom want to use the voice band to provide a full downstream capacity that ADSL2+ provides for.

Cyril

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  Reply # 96354 22-Nov-2007 10:20
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I can't believe anyone is actually complaining about this. Everyone has known this was on the cards. It has been said on the forums the ULL would be a waste of time given Telecom were going to move to NGN. Now that it's a reality they all cry foul.

If it has been apparent to us that ULL would be a complete waste of time then surely the ISPs could see that?

Telecom are actually commiting to huge investment, which is more than can be said for the rest of the ISPs.




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  Reply # 96355 22-Nov-2007 10:20
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TinyTim: I thought this was all addressed in the legislation. Didn't they allow subloop unbundling and mandate Telecom provide backhaul? So a new operator just has to bung a cabinet alongside a Telecom cabinet with a mini DSLAM in it, lease or install some backhaul, jumper their customers' lines across, and voila they're away.

Of course if all the operators do this we'll end up with a rows of cabinets all doing the same thing, every few blocks.


Which is why if Telecom are smart (and I have no doubts they are) their wholesale services will be pitched at a price that other telco's will jump at rather than installing their own gear.

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  Reply # 96357 22-Nov-2007 10:27
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sbiddle:
TinyTim: I thought this was all addressed in the legislation. Didn't they allow subloop unbundling and mandate Telecom provide backhaul? So a new operator just has to bung a cabinet alongside a Telecom cabinet with a mini DSLAM in it, lease or install some backhaul, jumper their customers' lines across, and voila they're away.

Of course if all the operators do this we'll end up with a rows of cabinets all doing the same thing, every few blocks.


Which is why if Telecom are smart (and I have no doubts they are) their wholesale services will be pitched at a price that other telco's will jump at rather than installing their own gear.


And I daresay companies like TCL will want to wholesale their services too if they go large-scale.

Just to confirm, sub-loop unbundling WAS included in the legislation and is mentioned in the UCLL website FAQ:


Will access seekers get access to the roadside cabinets?

Sub-loop unbundling and co-location at roadside cabinets are also services that may be regulated by the Commerce Commission. The Commission, with involvement from the telecommunications industry, may undertake a Standard Terms Determination in future to determine the form of access that may be available and the terms and conditions (including price) that should apply.


The ISPs should have been lobbying for this from the start given they all knew of Telecom's plans. Didn't they?




 

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  Reply # 96358 22-Nov-2007 10:28
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What Telecom's doing is to turn its back on 18 months worth of work by all the telcos and the Commerce Commission and basically puts us back by around two years.


So you think the CC did not no about Telecoms NGN plans, nor were they aware that the current switches and technology is dying and anyone investing in that old technology would be mad. Is the CC not interested in improving broadband performance for all NZ's, so how were they going to achieve this if a fundamental technical hurdle such as line length is not sorted, yeah right!

There were recent RMA related discussions by local bodies as to what size, number and density of curbside cabinets are allowed thought the land. As I remember it there is allowance for a increase in cabinet size(but only by a small amount) and population which would preclude dozens of ISPs installing roadside kit. But can someone please explain how much better in performance will company A's dslam be over company B's.


Cyril

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  Reply # 96359 22-Nov-2007 10:30

None of the ISPs is suggesting we didn't know about Telecom's cabinetisation plans but what Telecom has repeatedly and publicly said is that it would use cabinets in regional New Zealand, not in the heart of the network. It makes no economic sense for Telecom to cabinetise in this way. Instead, Telecom should be cabinetising the smaller areas where it makes sense to put in cabinets rather than a new exchange so as to INCREASE the reach of broadband.

Take an area like Point Chev in Auckland - it's on a peninsula, it's demanding better broadband and it's a long way from the exchange. It makes perfect sense to roll out a cabinet there and in fact customers have been crying out for just that for a long time.

But for an exchange like the one I'm on there is no business case for it. As a customer I won't see anything faster/better from a cabinet than I would from the exchange. Telecom's already installing ADSL2+ in these exchanges so it'll have to rip all of that out to put something else in the cabinets. It's an exercise in reducing competition.

We have spent the past 18 months coming up with detailed plans for unbundling exchanges. We finally have access to exchanges, albeit in a limited number and we have plans for introducing gear into a large number of exchanges in the year ahead. This is not the time for Telecom to announce it will be discontinuing those very exchanges - that time was 18 months ago when we started on this process. Telecom should have informed the ComCom and the industry which exchanges it would be phasing out so we could decide a: where to put the gear and b: whether to bother putting gear in at all.

We will now, no doubt, spend the next 18 months in discussions with the ComCom about sub-loop unbundling and how to deliver that. That gives Telecom, in effect, another 18 months' head start on the industry and a "regulatory holiday" as they soak up the cusotmer base before its competitors can gain access to the market.

Let's not forget, Telecom said it was only able to unbundle 15 exchanges per quarter, a woefully slow process, and possibly might not even meet that target because it couldn't find the staff. Now all of a sudden it can find staff to cabinetise 2000 boxes.






Paul Brislen
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http://forum.vodafone.co.nz


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  Reply # 96362 22-Nov-2007 10:45
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cyril7: Bung, I believe that Telecom are ditching all conventional voice circuits and replacing them with VOIP under the NGN plan. The NEAX's are on their last legs and no RFI for their replacement, however there has been major investment by Telecom to implement a complete IP based network as the core of the NGN.

Further, I think Telecom want to use the voice band to provide a full downstream capacity that ADSL2+ provides for.

Cyril


Some models of NEAX were on their last legs 10 years ago but equipment can and does get used long after that point.

Will the NEAX  stay until a cheap reliable  IP  phone for the  masses is found? There's a heap of people using their old phone to sort out their broadband.

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  Reply # 96363 22-Nov-2007 10:47
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cyril7:
There were recent RMA related discussions by local bodies as to what size, number and density of curbside cabinets are allowed thought the land. As I remember it there is allowance for a increase in cabinet size(but only by a small amount) and population which would preclude dozens of ISPs installing roadside kit.

(Off topic: up till now there has been no consistent rules between local bodies, with some councils being very strict and some rather loose regarding this sort of thing. So the discussions have been to implement nation-wide rules.)

cyril7:
But can someone please explain how much better in performance will company A's dslam be over company B's.


Well, probably not in the DSLAM itself (although you might have different varieties of DSL as operators go for different markets) but could be in backhaul: companies like TCL would have a lot more of their own backhaul than other operators (who lease off Telecom) and there may be performance differences there.




 

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  Reply # 96364 22-Nov-2007 10:50
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Shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.

From Mr Russell Stanners - Vodafone Big Wig:

"In the next five years, if all our dreams were to come true, we see no reason why we can't be the leading telco in New Zealand," says Russell Stanners.   "As a trend, every player in the industry believes voice will move to mobile. That is why we have a unique opportunity here in New Zealand."

The demise of fixed-line is accelerating, he says with a grin, and Vodafone plans to move quickly into the emerging wireless market.

Lets face it Vodafone have self serving interests in growing their bottom line and market share which they intend to take off Telecom. It is a pity that Voda still see the need in delivering broadband over that old copper line technology.

NZ is faced with a future duopoly for all communications services and Vodafone (a UK company) wants to be the incumbent. Nice!


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Reply # 96369 22-Nov-2007 11:13
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PaulBrislen: We have to tell Telecom and the government that this is not acceptable.


But Paul, you and the ISP's would say that, wouldn’t they?

nzbnw








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  Reply # 96370 22-Nov-2007 11:15
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PaulBrislen: None of the ISPs is suggesting we didn't know about Telecom's cabinetisation plans but what Telecom has repeatedly and publicly said is that it would use cabinets in regional New Zealand, not in the heart of the network. It makes no economic sense for Telecom to cabinetise in this way. Instead, Telecom should be cabinetising the smaller areas where it makes sense to put in cabinets rather than a new exchange so as to INCREASE the reach of broadband.

Care to actually back that up with a quote, because from what I have read and seen, the plan has been to sell ALL of the exchange land, and put cabinets in everywhere. 

 

But for an exchange like the one I'm on there is no business case for it. As a customer I won't see anything faster/better from a cabinet than I would from the exchange. Telecom's already installing ADSL2+ in these exchanges so it'll have to rip all of that out to put something else in the cabinets. It's an exercise in reducing competition.

No business case for you because you are with 2KM of the exchange, what about all the people outside of the 2KM? Do you want Telecom to NOT offer them faster broadband by moving the gear closer to their homes and shortening the copper runs? 


We have spent the past 18 months coming up with detailed plans for unbundling exchanges. We finally have access to exchanges, albeit in a limited number and we have plans for introducing gear into a large number of exchanges in the year ahead. This is not the time for Telecom to announce it will be discontinuing those very exchanges - that time was 18 months ago when we started on this process. Telecom should have informed the ComCom and the industry which exchanges it would be phasing out so we could decide a: where to put the gear and b: whether to bother putting gear in at all.

At any point during this 18 months of hard slog, did you ever think to ask what every geek here has asked, and  wonder how this will work with the NGN and cabinets?

Seems like your not listening to your techies and then crying fow when exactly what every tech said would happen, happens.

 

Let's not forget, Telecom said it was only able to unbundle 15 exchanges per quarter, a woefully slow process, and possibly might not even meet that target because it couldn't find the staff. Now all of a sudden it can find staff to cabinetise 2000 boxes.

 

Why go to such great effort to unbundle a product/service which they are discontinuing? I wouldn't. 

See, if you were REALLY smart, you wouldn't have wasted all your time with the exchanges, and started working on a solution/game plan for the cabinets, then you could have been 18 months AHEAD of the rest of the market...

Anyways, who cares - Isn't your wireless produce the best thing since sliced bread, and your mobile network so shiny and reliable you don't need Telecom's crappy old copper network?





Tyler - Parnell Geek - iPhone 3G - Lenovo X301 - Kaseya - Great Western Steak House, these are some of my favourite things.

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  Reply # 96373 22-Nov-2007 11:22

You said:
Care to actually back that up with a quote, because from what I have read and seen, the plan has been to sell ALL of the exchange land, and put cabinets in everywhere.

Certainly. Here's Telecom's press release announcing its investment:


Examples of townships that will benefit from the enhanced access network include Edgecumbe and Ngatea in the North Island, and Methven, Riverton, Pleasant Point and Waikouaiti in the South Island.

You said:
No business case for you because you are with 2KM of the exchange, what about all the people outside of the 2KM? Do you want Telecom to NOT offer them faster broadband by moving the gear closer to their homes and shortening the copper runs?

 

I think you need to go back and re-read what I said about Point Chev. For long runs, 2KM plus, then cabinetisation makes perfect sense. For sub-2KM loops it does not.

You said:
At any point during this 18 months of hard slog, did you ever think to ask what every geek here has asked, and wonder how this will work with the NGN and cabinets? Seems like your not listening to your techies and then crying fow when exactly what every tech said would happen, happens.

Of course we asked. We've asked, Orcon has asked, the journalists have asked and the Commerce Commission has asked. Yesterday Telecom told us. Nobody expected Telecom to shut down the very exchanges we're using to test equipment on Telecom's network. Why should we? Telecom suggested the exchanges to use for testing.




Paul Brislen
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http://forum.vodafone.co.nz


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Reply # 96375 22-Nov-2007 11:29
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exportgoldman:
Why go to such great effort to unbundle a product/service which they are discontinuing? I wouldn't. 


This is why: extra revenue Money mouth




 

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