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854 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 156658 13-Aug-2008 17:57
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Who is THIRD? :) I'm vodafone user... just checked on my nokia 6120 what is available.

could not connect to any of those but only home network worked (vodafone)





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  Reply # 156663 13-Aug-2008 18:25
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bbman: . If they do go 850MHZ WCDMA the GSM network will be shut down most likely, but from where i stand, bring on 850MHZ UMTS !!!



Why do you assume that Telecom would shut down GSM? Having a GSM network is quite important strategically.







 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 156667 13-Aug-2008 18:33
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Shutting down the new GSM network is going to create some massive problems, (excluding the existing CDMA network, which no one is making handsets for anymore) the whole global roaming is going to be limited to that of 2100 and 850 WCDMA, most of the current range of handsets support GSM850/900/1800/1900 and WCDMA 2100 freqencies and modulation. (ok if you stay on the current WCDMA2100 airport to CBD city route, and you don't want to leave Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch)

You'll have to go buy a fancy UMTS850/2100 to be able to roam on Telecom, which there aren't that many of, especally since the average user only updates their phone every 2 years.

This is one of the many hurdles they will be faced with.

Good times, I agree though..bring on 850!!!!!!!!!

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  Reply # 156671 13-Aug-2008 18:59
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langi27:
which no one is making handsets for anymore) the whole global roaming is going to be limited to that of 2100 and 850 WCDMA


Sorry to bring this up, but this just sounds like Telstra's spin on the whole CDMA vs. WCDMA debate. There are still some large CDMA operators out there (hence still a demand), and if this is the case someone better tell Sprint quickly...


nzbnw







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  Reply # 156677 13-Aug-2008 19:36
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langi27:
Shutting down the new GSM network is going to create some massive problems, (excluding the existing CDMA network, which no one is making handsets for anymore) the whole global roaming is going to be limited to that of 2100 and 850 WCDMA, most of the current range of handsets support GSM850/900/1800/1900 and WCDMA 2100 freqencies and modulation. (ok if you stay on the current WCDMA2100 airport to CBD city route, and you don't want to leave Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch)

You'll have to go buy a fancy UMTS850/2100 to be able to roam on Telecom, which there aren't that many of, especally since the average user only updates their phone every 2 years.

This is one of the many hurdles they will be faced with.

Good times, I agree though..bring on 850!!!!!!!!!


Actually there are plenty of handsets for CDMA, Telecom have obviously decided not to progress with these unless forced too, CDMA is certainly not dead but its roaming capability is hopeless.

As far as roaming goes, WCDMA handsets natively come with GSM tri or Quad band so roaming is not an issue there, Telecom already are looking at dual or tri band WCDMA with tri or Quad band GSM, there are a bunch out there now.

The GSM network may go ahead still but with limited capacity, becuase the spectrum is heavily under use already with CDMA and in the end the 850MHZ UMTS network. This will be an interesting thing to see.

I have noticed several new sites in CHCH under construction, Bush Inn and Parklands so the 2100/GSM/CDMA roll out is well and truly under way.





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  Reply # 156681 13-Aug-2008 20:03
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nzbnw:

Sorry to bring this up, but this just sounds like Telstra's spin on the whole CDMA vs. WCDMA debate.



Telstra's spin wasn't so much that CDMA was obsolete, it was the fact they wanted a single technology. Next G has delivered that and also delivered a platform that (with the exception of hardcore CDMA fans) far exceeds the coverage and capabilities of the CDMA network it replaced.


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  Reply # 156704 13-Aug-2008 21:03
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Perhaps but they did say they could no longer source (or something to that effect) CDMA handsets. I'm not saying what Telstra did was wrong, actually I think much like you in that they have the best WCDMA network around.

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  Reply # 156721 13-Aug-2008 21:34


Sorry for beeing offtopic but let me add my point to the 850MHz vs 900MHz debate, which I can see in this thread:

WCDMA/HSPA technology is now commercially deployed in the 850, 900, 1700, 1800, 1900 and 2100MHz frequency bands and the deployment in the 2.6GHz frequency band will start shortly (from E///)

Operators will deploy their 3G network in whatever frequency they already have or whatever they can buy.
This means ex-CDMA Operators or new Operators trying to get into the market most probably will turn to 850MHz frequency for WCDMA as the 900MHz frequencies are sold out, like in NZ.

You might have more 850MHz WCDMA networks at the moment in the world (24, right?) but I believe, Operators who already have 900MHz GSM and 2100MHZ 3G network in their hands will refarm their 900MHZ frequencies and turn into 900MHz WCDMA networks.

In this case in few years time you will find more WCDMA 900 networks than 850s and then let's talk about roaming again.
But at that time it wont matter as we will have more and more phones capable of working on 850 and 900MHZ.

ontopic




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 156724 13-Aug-2008 21:40
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sbiddle:

Telstra's spin wasn't so much that CDMA was obsolete, it was the fact they wanted a single technology. Next G has delivered that and also delivered a platform that (with the exception of hardcore CDMA fans) far exceeds the coverage and capabilities of the CDMA network it replaced.

Telstra needed to shut down their multitude of networks, and attempt to consolidate the backend technologies. They still have 3 vendors and technologies in their mobile space, but that is a decrease from the previous 4. They also had a need to free up some of the spectrum that the CDMA platform was using.

 

As for Telstra and Ericsson's performance building the NextG network - don't assume that it was all fantastic on the business and technical implementation side. There is a lot of angst at Telstra over how the build went, and I believe there is now some legal wranglings over the cost of it - some of this has been reported in the media recently.

 

I personally would be surprised if Telecom went to another vendor for the WCDMA850 solution, as this deviates from their business planning around strategic vendor relationships.

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  Reply # 156734 13-Aug-2008 22:12
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PenultimateHop:
sbiddle:

Telstra's spin wasn't so much that CDMA was obsolete, it was the fact they wanted a single technology. Next G has delivered that and also delivered a platform that (with the exception of hardcore CDMA fans) far exceeds the coverage and capabilities of the CDMA network it replaced.

Telstra needed to shut down their multitude of networks, and attempt to consolidate the backend technologies. They still have 3 vendors and technologies in their mobile space, but that is a decrease from the previous 4. They also had a need to free up some of the spectrum that the CDMA platform was using.

 

As for Telstra and Ericsson's performance building the NextG network - don't assume that it was all fantastic on the business and technical implementation side. There is a lot of angst at Telstra over how the build went, and I believe there is now some legal wranglings over the cost of it - some of this has been reported in the media recently.

 

I personally would be surprised if Telecom went to another vendor for the WCDMA850 solution, as this deviates from their business planning around strategic vendor relationships.


Totally agree re vendor choice. Your reasoning makes sense and since Alcatel have at least rolled out 1 x 850mhz network already and they have the existing network plus new network under way they surely would be a good choice.

Certainly Ericsson have not been perfect in Aussie with the NextG build, then again they were able to cover a huge area with the network because of the existing CDMA foot print and that makes there network look so good.





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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 156737 13-Aug-2008 22:16
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Aloha:
Sorry for beeing offtopic but let me add my point to the 850MHz vs 900MHz debate, which I can see in this thread:

WCDMA/HSPA technology is now commercially deployed in the 850, 900, 1700, 1800, 1900 and 2100MHz frequency bands and the deployment in the 2.6GHz frequency band will start shortly (from E///)

The Operators will deploy their 3G network in whatever frequency they already have or whatever they can buy.
This means ex-CDMA Operators or new Operators trying to get into the market most probably will turn to 850MHz frequency for WCDMA as the 900MHz frequencies are sold out, like in NZ.

You might  have more 850MHz WCDMA networks at the moment in the world  (24, right?) but I believe, Operators who already have 900MHz GSM and 2100MHZ 3G network in their hands will refarm their 900MHZ frequencies and turn into 900MHz WCDMA networks.

In this case in few years time you will find more WCDMA 900 networks than 850s and then let's talk about roaming again.
But at that time it wont matter as we will have more and more phones capable of working on 850 and 900MHZ.

ontopic


Your right in time 900mhz networks will out number 850mhz networks because of the share number of 900mhz GSM networks around. The good thing is here in NZ and in Aussie we will get to compare 900mhz with 850mhz and it is bound to favour 850mhz for foot print and overall coverage. Roaming isnt going to be an issue as quad band wCDMA phones are already being released.





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UFB fibre, Rural fibre on EA networks, RBI wireless, Ruralnet & Ultra wireless, wireless networks


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 156787 14-Aug-2008 09:01
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You do wonder just how hungry Ericsson are after having all their old AMPs and D-AMPS equipment shutdown, Alcatel-Lucent would want to have a good offer on the table. After having TelstraClear pull the plug, they have nothing left in the NZ mobiles Market. (apart from the Transmission equipment they supply to VF, TNZ, Kordia snf others)

I beleive Ericsson lost a lot of money getting their equipment into Telstra, and there was a lot of R&D activities happening while the system was being brought into service. But now most of the major bugs have been ironed out, you'd think they would have a more advanced 850 network than Alcatel-Lucent, and can probably offer more features for the same money.

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  Reply # 156830 14-Aug-2008 10:39
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langi27:
I beleive Ericsson lost a lot of money getting their equipment into Telstra, and there was a lot of R&D activities happening while the system was being brought into service. But now most of the major bugs have been ironed out, you'd think they would have a more advanced 850 network than Alcatel-Lucent, and can probably offer more features for the same money.

Remember the Alcatel-Lucent WCDMA solution was purchased from Nortel, so there is a significant pedigree in 850MHz operations at A-L.

As far as the more features at same cost goes there is more to be considered than just the Node Bs:  
- Interoperability testing with the newly deployed RNCs needs to be done - and possibly feature development made to equipment from either vendor's side.  This adds delays and significant cost to the vendor and customer.
- Worst case, you might end up deploying new/additional RNCs at significant cost to the project, and significant operational cost to manage.
- You also need to look at the costs of integrating with the IMS elements supporting the backend functionality (in theory, this is easy.  It's standardised.  In practice, that's a big "yeah right!").
- Worst of all - the OSS/BSS integration processes for adding another vendor and network element type - this adds tens of millions of dollars of cost to new deployments and is something that most telcos actively seek to avoid.

These issues add up to a very good reason that incumbent vendors tend to stay incumbent, remembering that TNZ has stated a significant business goal of reducing OpEx - adding additional vendors and products equals more support, more training, more development of support platforms, all of which is more cost. 

I would also have to wonder who would actually operate the network for TNZ - given that A-L provides the network operations for the existing fixed and mobile networks (including the new GSM network).  That's yet another cost to consider.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 156936 14-Aug-2008 15:54
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Interesting points you raise, and I agree in the most part. Although try telling Nokia Siemens that, they have just gone through this exercise with Optus/VodafoneAU and now dual supplier......Hauwei/Ericsson, Hauwei sent an army of engineers across to interface with Nokia's Core equipment. Not sure about VFAU and Ericsson.

However........ you are forgetting that, before Lucent and Alcatel mergerd TNZ had a dual vendor policy, Alcatel (fixed line) and Lucent (mobiles). Now they merged its back to single vendor (in the big picture), I beleive its been expected TNZ will introduce that same policy again.

Its also very likely that when ALU signed the GSM/UMTS supply agreement they included clauses like.......You will provide Interoperability support,

Ericsson have a lot of experience with this kind of dual vendor setup. They know how to play this game, and the cost assioated with this kind of testing will be absorbed with future upgrades and SW realeases. Its a lot easier to increase the price on a peice of SW when your equipment is in and running.

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  Reply # 157021 14-Aug-2008 19:15

langi27:
Its a lot easier to increase the price on a peice of SW when your equipment is in and running.


Hmmmm...Dilbert!




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