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600 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 212892 6-May-2009 16:55
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So, intermodulation ends up looking like this?

(Sorry, no pre-tag on this one, Geekzone seems to be having "issues").

*
*      *
*      *          *
-----------------
TNZ  NZCL    VF

After amplification
                    
*                   *
*       *         #*#
*       *   ####*#
---------------------

Where the hashes represent additional noise added in because of the intermodulation from the TNZ/NZCL signals?
It could even end up being:

*                  ###
*       *         #*#
*       *   ####*#
---------------------

Where the VF signal is drowned out by the additional spam introduced by the amp?

Doesn't that mean that in both the Intermodulation and the Blocking situations the solution is to put a filter on VF's equipment _before_ the amplifier?

I'm guessing that filters are priced based on how specific they are - the tighter the frequency range you have to allow through, the more expensive it is? 

So, it might be cheaper to put an outgoing filter on TNZ's equipment instead of a filter on VF's equipment before the amplifier - the problem causing signal is further from TNZ's TX frequency and close to VF's RX (am I getting them right?)?

Guessing time:

That would explain part of the argument.  They're arguing over who has to pay for the filters.  TNZ is saying, "Put a filter on your equipment" and VF is saying, "Holy crap, them's some expensive filters!  How about you put some cheap ones on your equipment?"




120 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 212893 6-May-2009 17:07
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Looks like the decision is sue around midday tomorrow.....not much new info from the article on Stuff

 
 
 
 


2726 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 212894 6-May-2009 17:09
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they just said on the 4.30pm the decision will be out at lunchtime tomorrow

140 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 212896 6-May-2009 17:13
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'*video clip of cell expert/engineer talking about something not related to the topic*
And holding a wok, an iPod and a water filter.
Oh no, that would be the Herald.;-)

478 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 212908 6-May-2009 17:38
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well prime news has just been and really thing was reported, anyone know of a link where more up to date info is

120 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 212910 6-May-2009 17:42
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/telecoms-it-media/2388714/Vodafone-Telecom-ruling-tomorrow

Whilst most of this is the same old stuff, it does have some of the lawyers comments etc

1780 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 212917 6-May-2009 18:14
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NZ Herald's take on the whole thing... I say let's all go to sleep and get up at mid day when the verdict due Cool

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 212920 6-May-2009 18:26
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Interesting that 3News has nothing. Maybe things didn't go well for Vodafone..




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Old3eyes


307 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 212921 6-May-2009 18:27
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tcom share price went up 5cents :D

307 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 212922 6-May-2009 18:28
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lol spoke too soon ... they just had a clip but all they didn't say anything we don't already know.

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  Reply # 212925 6-May-2009 19:00
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Decimate: Looks like the decision is sue around midday tomorrow.....not much new info from the article on Stuff


LOL. are you trying to tell us something here? perhaps you have advance knowledge of the ruling?




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3539 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 212931 6-May-2009 19:47
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Decimate: Whilst most of this is the same old stuff, it does have some of the lawyers comments etc

I was outside working while listening to National Radio's Checkpoint programme.  They broadcast some comments from Telecom's Lawyer.  He accused Vodafone of acting like an Incumbent who was afraid of the competition and was desperately trying to delay that from happening.

Now ... let's turn the clock back a couple of years ... Oh, there is such Delicious Irony in that comment from Telecom's Lawyer Tongue out

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  Reply # 212934 6-May-2009 20:07
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jpollock: Where the VF signal is drowned out by the additional spam introduced by the amp?

Doesn't that mean that in both the Intermodulation and the Blocking situations the solution is to put a filter on VF's equipment _before_ the amplifier?

Indeed!

jpollock: I'm guessing that filters are priced based on how specific they are - the tighter the frequency range you have to allow through, the more expensive it is? 

There are various other considerations apart from "how specific" the filters are.  Power Handling capacity is one of them.

But in general, the greater the number of poles a filter has, the more components it contains and thus the more expensive it will usually be.  Another way of saying this is that the filter is of Higher Order.  When the Passband is very close to the Stopband, you need a higher order filter to deal with it.  If you use a lower order filter, it will attenuate some of the signals in the passband, while not providing enough attenuation in the stopband.

jpollock: So, it might be cheaper to put an outgoing filter on TNZ's equipment instead of a filter on VF's equipment before the amplifier - the problem causing signal is further from TNZ's TX frequency and close to VF's RX (am I getting them right?)?

Whoa, hang on there for a moment...

Remember that we are dealing with Scenario (2) from your previous post here and the Blocking or Intermodulation is being caused by a strong Out-of-Band signal so far as the Receiver is concerned.  In this case, Out-of-Band for Vodafone's Rx is In-Band for Telecom's Tx.  Therefore, putting an Out-of-Band filter on Telecom's Tx will not help with the Intermod. or Blocking problem in Vodafone's Rx.

It would however help with any Spurious Out-of-Band Emissions from Telecom's Tx (Scenario 1).  But MED have apparently done the Spectrum Analysis, and Telecom's Tx passes muster in this regard.

So, on the basis of the info. I have seen to date, it looks like Scenario (2) is the more likely one at this stage.

It surely will be interesting to see what happens come midday tomorrow...

600 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 212937 6-May-2009 20:24
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O.k.  If the spurious signal is actually TNZ's TX frequency, then yes, TNZ can't filter it out!

So, is there a third situation then, where TNZ is producing a spurious signal that isn't in their TX band, but which would be causing intermodulation in VF's amplifiers?

I can see why this is so complicated.




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  Reply # 212951 6-May-2009 21:26
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jpollock: So, is there a third situation then, where TNZ is producing a spurious signal that isn't in their TX band, but which would be causing intermodulation in VF's amplifiers?

Possible, but I would have to say unlikely.

I can't remember what brand of equipment Telecom have installed, but they wouldn't have selected anything without the necessary CE/FCC approvals.  Those approvals mean that the equipment has been rigorously tested for Out-of-Band Emissions.  There is always a certain amount present with any transmitter, but they must be many, many dB below the carrier frequency.

Because the Out-of-Band emissions are so many dB lower than the carrier frequency, it would be unusual for them to cause Intermod. in a nearby receiver tuned to another band unless the antennae were practically pointing directly at each other from just a few metres away.  You can never say never with these kinds of issues, but it would certainly be unusual with well-designed kit such as the Nokia-Siemens that Vodafone are using.

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