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484 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 248607 19-Aug-2009 12:13
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dickytim:
Ragnor: There is no evidence that I've seen that Visionstream will be less effective than Transfield for the work Telecom needs done.  I don't see how quality will magically suffer just because another company came up with a more competitive bid than Transfield.


You don't???

if a job is paid x amount regarless of the time it takes then wont the contractors be trying to complete the job in the quickest, sometimes that means taking shortcuts,

After speaking to the contractor at work yesterday the issue that most of them has is less about buying their own vans, equiptment etc but the travel allowances and the like, well in this guy's view anyway.


Not all the time - if that is the case then significant analysis will be done - from my memory of the service company performance report all this stuff is monitored, and if this is the case, then it signals a need for more quality control training, or improvement in their business processes




For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

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  # 248609 19-Aug-2009 12:18
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The issues over quality are similar to what contractor company employees experienced years ago when installing the saturn network, because the employees were paid piece rate fixed fee per type of installation essentially the quicker one got the job done meant better earnings - the compromise is quality over speed and what can be earnt

 
 
 
 


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  # 248611 19-Aug-2009 12:20
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HybridE506r: The issues over quality are similar to what contractor company employees experienced years ago when installing the saturn network, because the employees were paid piece rate fixed fee per type of installation essentially the quicker one got the job done meant better earnings - the compromise is quality over speed and what can be earnt


Yes but you will find that there is a bigger penalty for the service companies when a job isnt done right - additional cost of more van rolls, more labour fixing the problem which is then compounded by financial penalties set out in the contract for poor performance.

Really it should not be that great an issue if the company wants to stay in business, getting thing right the first time at the sacrifice for a small amount of speed is ALWAYS cheaper then trying to rush through the job and pay through the nose for it later




For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

Wob



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NBN Co

  # 248718 19-Aug-2009 18:39
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Having worked for TCL on piece rates, it is never in your best interests to cock anything up - you will have to go back and sort it at your cost!!

Telecom does not work on this model, however. Downers and Transfield techs are paid on hourly rate. I'm not sure how Vision stream is going to work it - anyone got any details about that?

I would be very concerned about committing to buying a vehicle, tools, test gear and PPE, then to be at the mercy of a company (Visionstream in this case) for my work. Six months down the track, if they decide to screw down the rates, what can you do?

I also have some concerns about Visionstream in NZ. With Transfield and Downers, Telecom know what they are getting into, they have been dealing with these two companies for a long time. Visionstream have no presence or history in NZ. This is screaming that they have won the Auckland and Northland patches through pricing alone - that is, undercutting Downer.

No wonder Transfield are sh*tting themselves - they are going to have to cut costs even more to be able to compete.




 

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  # 248720 19-Aug-2009 18:42
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Wob: Having worked for TCL on piece rates, it is never in your best interests to cock anything up - you will have to go back and sort it at your cost!!

Telecom does not work on this model, however. Downers and Transfield techs are paid on hourly rate. I'm not sure how Vision stream is going to work it - anyone got any details about that?

I would be very concerned about committing to buying a vehicle, tools, test gear and PPE, then to be at the mercy of a company (Visionstream in this case) for my work. Six months down the track, if they decide to screw down the rates, what can you do?

I also have some concerns about Visionstream in NZ. With Transfield and Downers, Telecom know what they are getting into, they have been dealing with these two companies for a long time. Visionstream have no presence or history in NZ. This is screaming that they have won the Auckland and Northland patches through pricing alone - that is, undercutting Downer.

No wonder Transfield are sh*tting themselves - they are going to have to cut costs even more to be able to compete.


Yup, which probably explains the complete change of business model. It's a pretty drastic step for a company to reinvent itself such as this. Does anyone know what Visionstreams business model is?

Wob



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NBN Co

  # 248875 20-Aug-2009 05:51
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littlescott: Yup, which probably explains the complete change of business model. It's a pretty drastic step for a company to reinvent itself such as this. Does anyone know what Visionstreams business model is?


Lets get one thing quite clear, Telecom haven't changed themselves or their policy. Telecom have just continued to take the contractor with the lowest bid, irrespective of what impact it will have on the industry or the people currently doing their field/install/fault work.
They will continue to sit back sipping their lattes (head office has moved to Akl now) watching the profits roll in, and their shareholders wallets get fatter.




 

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  # 248885 20-Aug-2009 07:08
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I really don't see how Telecom can cope it for this. Visionstream have a rather ruthless business model pushing toward contractors rather than staff, Telecom has divied up the business geographically and relatively equally to all three contenders, yes Downers and Transfield will probably be carrying a higher than required headcount now given 3 players instead of two however my understanding is that a good portion of the redundancies stem from people not wanting to move from the auckland region south to where they have the supply contract.

 
 
 
 


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Ultimate Geek

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  # 248889 20-Aug-2009 07:43
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Wob:
littlescott: Yup, which probably explains the complete change of business model. It's a pretty drastic step for a company to reinvent itself such as this. Does anyone know what Visionstreams business model is?


Lets get one thing quite clear, Telecom haven't changed themselves or their policy. Telecom have just continued to take the contractor with the lowest bid, irrespective of what impact it will have on the industry or the people currently doing their field/install/fault work.
They will continue to sit back sipping their lattes (head office has moved to Akl now) watching the profits roll in, and their shareholders wallets get fatter.


Its not a charity, if it was your business would you go for a company with anything other than the lowest price?





For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

Wob



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NBN Co

  # 248900 20-Aug-2009 08:06
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Balchy:Its not a charity, if it was your business would you go for a company with anything other than the lowest price?



Quite frankly - yes!

When making a business decicion of this significance, it is not just the price that drives it. I would look at the track record of these companies, their level of committment, their policy, their SLAs, their HR attitude (grumpy, pissed off techs fixing your phone doesn't do a business any good - and remember, when these field guys are out doing their job, they are representing Telecom) and their value for money.

I'm not saying cost is not important - it is!

But would you engage a contracting company without a presence in NZ, therefore no track record, with a questionable contract model that all their prospective employees don't like (putting it mildly) and unproven levels of service (in NZ), purely on price?




 

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  # 248901 20-Aug-2009 08:08
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Do you think a large corporation would do that without undertaking due diligence via the contract negotiations? and have approriate controls and penalties in place?





For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

Wob



310 posts

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NBN Co

  # 248904 20-Aug-2009 08:24
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Balchy: Do you think a large corporation would do that without undertaking due diligence via the contract negotiations? and have approriate controls and penalties in place?



I'm sure Telecom have got Visionstream sewn up pretty tightly. My rant is all pure speculation of course - I have no idea what went on in negotiations and how the contract is structured.

I guess I'm just a bit pissed off that Telecom don't seem to give a toss about the NZ telecommunications industry or the people who work in it.




 

Now based in Perth WA.

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  # 248905 20-Aug-2009 08:29
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heh, its no news that they dont give a toss about their staff with their rolling restructures, I caught that bullet a few years ago myself.

I guess what I am trying to say is that with regulations forced on them by the government (not going to get into a debate about why that occured or that telecom brought it on themselves) that would have greatly increased their costs, so that is in turn going to force them to become more economical in its operations.

And you're right none of us really know what has happened in terms of the contracts etc. and I know for a fact that Telecom would sew them up VERY tightly. I guess what I am strying to say is that, Telecoms main responsibility is to its shareholders, as it is with any company, and they must be trying to find a balance between their costs, theirs profits and their service levels




For billions of years since the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your Mum and Dads side, successfully looked after and passed onto you life.  What are the chances of that like?

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  # 250276 25-Aug-2009 08:34
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I see at the same time as Telecom is trying to shaft it's line staff they are quite happy to pay CEO Paul Reynolds a record bonus despite a 44% drop in net profit. Good for some I guess..

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10592948




Regards,

Old3eyes


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NBN Co

  # 250278 25-Aug-2009 08:41
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No wonder he's smiling in the photo.

Mind you I have more faith in this guy than the previous CEO.

Do you think he reads geekzone?.... Yeah right!!




 

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  # 250336 25-Aug-2009 12:29
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old3eyes: I see at the same time as Telecom is trying to shaft it's line staff they are quite happy to pay CEO Paul Reynolds a record bonus despite a 44% drop in net profit. Good for some I guess..

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10592948


To quote Seth Godin:

Scarcity makes leadership valuable. If everyone tries to lead all the time, not much happens. It’s discomfort that creates the leverage that makes leadership worthwhile.

In other words, if everyone could do it, they would, and it wouldn’t be worth much.




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