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1892 posts

Uber Geek


  # 306091 10-Mar-2010 22:13
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Ugh.

Where do I start?

I call Telecom, tell them about my problem. Good news is I get a very friendly rep that understands what I am going through. The downside was he knew nothing about about networking...I mentioned trace rout a few times and it threw him right off.

Anywho...I asked if I could control interleaving online. I knew I couldn't, but I did it the round about way for various reasons. Previously (as in two/three weeks previously) I had asked them twice to switch interleaving off. Each time they said they would do it...another 48 hours passed and it was not done. Today I call and it appears that 2/3 weeks later it is still on. This could be the source of my issues.

I was given an email with a log thingy to report any difficulties I have. I can send the report for a technician to look into. One interleaving is switched off and I am still having issues I will do just that.

For now...I wait. Maybe they will find a more serious issue with the transfer.

My father (one of the most computer retarded people in New Zealand) suggested that I might still be going through my other ISP and connecting to Telecom. While that itself is incorrect, I thought it could be possible that I am still being routed to a Wellington server through the Citylink network to Telecom, back to Citylink and to my house?

Not sure if that is even possible, but it could explain the tremendous pings to national servers if it was possible.

Like I said before. I'll wiat it out. I can see BigTime becoming one of the best plans around. Telecom are already half way there! :)





Sometimes what you don't get is a blessing in disguise!

1273 posts

Uber Geek


  # 306094 10-Mar-2010 22:23
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I used the online support form to have mine turned off.

Took ~5 days (including the weekend) after I received a response for it to be done.




rm *


 
 
 
 


4180 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 306096 10-Mar-2010 22:32
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DravidDavid:[snip]I had asked them twice to switch interleaving off. Each time they said they would do it...another 48 hours passed and it was not done. Today I call and it appears that 2/3 weeks later it is still on. This could be the source of my issues.


Nope, turning interleaving off will NOT improve consistency and packet loss. If anything it will make it worse.

Going from full depth interleaving to no inteleaving will drop your round trip latency by about 32ms, but if the line has any underlying errors, then they will become errors on the IP layer and TCP will detect this and back off... With Interleaving on, many of these errors are detected underneath the IP layer and the packets are retransmitted so TCP doesn't even notice the problem.


[snip]
My father (one of the most computer retarded people in New Zealand) suggested that I might still be going through my other ISP and connecting to Telecom. While that itself is incorrect, I thought it could be possible that I am still being routed to a Wellington server through the Citylink network to Telecom, back to Citylink and to my house?

Not sure if that is even possible, but it could explain the tremendous pings to national servers if it was possible.


No, just not possible.

If you're getting huge pings to national sites like www.telecom.co.nz (assuming there is no other activity on the line at that time), raise a support ticket and PM me the same details.

Cheers - N




--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


518 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 306097 10-Mar-2010 22:33
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Yup sounds like you are with the rest of us, looks like im not the only one




PC: 3.3ghz Core i5-2500, 8gb DDR3, ATI Radeon 5850, 27" QHD IPS Monitor

Mobile Phone: iPhone 5 32gb Graphite.


450 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 306098 10-Mar-2010 22:35
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Im having major issues at residence / work on a non big time plan. 

Pinging www.theregister.co.uk [212.100.234.54] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 212.100.234.54: bytes=32 time=545ms TTL=44
Reply from 212.100.234.54: bytes=32 time=424ms TTL=44
Request timed out
Reply from 212.100.234.54: bytes=32 time=421ms TTL=44
Reply from 212.100.234.54: bytes=32 time=440ms TTL=44
Reply from 212.100.234.54: bytes=32 time=471ms TTL=44
Request timed out

That jetstream 9MB file downloaded at between 1016B and 9kb/s, .14MB d/l on the consumer website, VFNZ froze at a ping of 1022ms 

trace to telecom

1 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms mygateway
2 21 ms 19 ms 21 ms 125.237.40.1 . jetstream.xtra.co.nz [125.237.40.1] 
3 * * * Request timed out. 
4 55 ms 49 ms 48 ms ae4-20.akcr10.global-gateway.net.nz [202.50.238. 
49] 
5 50 ms 48 ms 49 ms g0-1-0-4.akcr8.global-gateway.net.nz [210.55.202 
.49] 
6 49 ms mygateway reports destination protocol unreachable

1892 posts

Uber Geek


  # 306107 10-Mar-2010 23:33
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Talkiet: Nope, turning interleaving off will NOT improve consistency and packet
loss. If anything it will make it worse.


I had interleaving switched off with my old ISP (that went through Telecom) and I had no issues.  My friends
also have non and right now, ping is my biggest most obvious issue.  I have only had packet loss when others experienced the same thing.  Either way, I can always switch it back on.


If you're getting huge pings to national sites like www.telecom.co.nz (assuming there is no other activity on the line at that time), raise a support ticket and PM me the same details.


Thanks for clearing that up.  It was just a stab in the dark.





Sometimes what you don't get is a blessing in disguise!

681 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 306108 10-Mar-2010 23:37
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The problem i have with all this is TCP loss in MMO's (Causes DC's and large ping spikes because of retransmission).

Also i seem to get disconnected a lot in online games, i think this could be related. It doesn't happen all the time though it happens at random intervals. Its quite a pain because it quite often leaves you in the server blocking you from rejoining.

What would be interesting is some UDP tests since that being dropped would cause extra issues to everyone.

 
 
 
 


1892 posts

Uber Geek


  # 306109 10-Mar-2010 23:43
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ArcticSilver: The problem i have with all this is TCP loss in MMO's (Causes DC's and large ping spikes because of retransmission).

Also i seem to get disconnected a lot in online games, i think this could be related. It doesn't happen all the time though it happens at random intervals. Its quite a pain because it quite often leaves you in the server blocking you from rejoining.

What would be interesting is some UDP tests since that being dropped would cause extra issues to everyone.


Since Telecom said they would make games un-playable and P2P un-usable...Would they really go out of their way to fix it?

I think it was a poor decision to shape gaming traffic (since it uses next to nothing anyway) but at least they told me so.

They should make line speed rediculously high and sell that instead of capping people.  I would fork the same cash for 256K unlimited connection over an 8Mb connection I can't do anything with...





Sometimes what you don't get is a blessing in disguise!

681 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 306117 11-Mar-2010 00:10
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DravidDavid:
ArcticSilver: The problem i have with all this is TCP loss in MMO's (Causes DC's and large ping spikes because of retransmission).

Also i seem to get disconnected a lot in online games, i think this could be related. It doesn't happen all the time though it happens at random intervals. Its quite a pain because it quite often leaves you in the server blocking you from rejoining.

What would be interesting is some UDP tests since that being dropped would cause extra issues to everyone.


Since Telecom said they would make games un-playable and P2P un-usable...Would they really go out of their way to fix it?

I think it was a poor decision to shape gaming traffic (since it uses next to nothing anyway) but at least they told me so.

They should make line speed rediculously high and sell that instead of capping people.  I would fork the same cash for 256K unlimited connection over an 8Mb connection I can't do anything with...


I think they would, because above all things if a plan is useless, its useless. Why would anyone go on it if they couldnt do anything on it?

They dont deliberately shape gaming traffic. The problem is limiting downloading/torrenting is tricky and games quite oftenly get caught in the crossfire. Especially when people try to cercumvent it all the time.

1892 posts

Uber Geek


  # 306124 11-Mar-2010 00:38
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People getting around shaping isn't common...But those that do rip terrabytes of data each month. If Telecom started axing those who went over 3 or so hundred GB per month...Decent network speed may result.

I think they call it a softcap in the states. We called it the "fair usage policy" which I didn't like at the time...But am finding I am beginning to miss. :|

Americans pay for the speed of their line....No cap at all. If BigTime was the same price for unlimited but the line speed was only 256/512 (without shaping of course) I would prefer that over something that "Might work every now and again at full speed...maybe."

Telecom gets points from me for taking a step in the right direction. I thought other ISPs would follow suit aswell. They havn't been as quick off the mark as I thought they would be.





Sometimes what you don't get is a blessing in disguise!

3841 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 306344 11-Mar-2010 17:48
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Talkiet:
I'm afraid as you have pointed out, the fact that the physical layer and connection to internal servers is apparently fine, the packet loss may be a result of the shaping on the Bigtime plan. Unless someone can replicate these results on a non shaped Telecom broadband plan, there's probably not much point in logging tihis as it appears to be limited to International traffic on Bigtime.

Remember that TCP deals with packet loss pretty well... If your requirements are for a plan with really good international performance (including very low packet loss), then (and you know what I'm about to say)... There are other plans that will deliver that. Sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear.

Cheers - N


The problem is that Bigtime's service is spotty. I was a fairly early adopter of the plan, and almost the entire time it runs better than this. Even during the "insane high pings" debacle that Dravid refers to I wasnt getting packet loss like this. This is a new (read last few days / week at the most) development, please dont insult me by telling me its business as usual.

Shaping is fine, increased latency I dont like but can live with. Constant packet loss when I am doing nothing on the connection is a deal breaker.  It's also very easily fixed by doozy telling a network guy to provision some xtra (pun intended) bandwidth for the bigtime pool.


On a seperate note: Doozy can I suggest a new plan for you to offer? Basically the same as bigtime, but with a small amount (say 512) CIR international, to give people a guranteed good stable platform, with burst capability upwards. Call it Bigtime Plus, charge an extra $10-20 for it. I know I'd sign up for it (or you could give it to me for free for coming up with the idea *grin*)








Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.


4180 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  # 306356 11-Mar-2010 18:24
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Lias:
Talkiet:
I'm afraid as you have pointed out, the fact that the physical layer and connection to internal servers is apparently fine, the packet loss may be a result of the shaping on the Bigtime plan. Unless someone can replicate these results on a non shaped Telecom broadband plan, there's probably not much point in logging tihis as it appears to be limited to International traffic on Bigtime.

Remember that TCP deals with packet loss pretty well... If your requirements are for a plan with really good international performance (including very low packet loss), then (and you know what I'm about to say)... There are other plans that will deliver that. Sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear.

Cheers - N


The problem is that Bigtime's service is spotty. I was a fairly early adopter of the plan, and almost the entire time it runs better than this. Even during the "insane high pings" debacle that Dravid refers to I wasnt getting packet loss like this. This is a new (read last few days / week at the most) development, please dont insult me by telling me its business as usual.

Shaping is fine, increased latency I dont like but can live with. Constant packet loss when I am doing nothing on the connection is a deal breaker.  It's also very easily fixed by doozy telling a network guy to provision some xtra (pun intended) bandwidth for the bigtime pool.


On a seperate note: Doozy can I suggest a new plan for you to offer? Basically the same as bigtime, but with a small amount (say 512) CIR international, to give people a guranteed good stable platform, with burst capability upwards. Call it Bigtime Plus, charge an extra $10-20 for it. I know I'd sign up for it (or you could give it to me for free for coming up with the idea *grin*)


Sorry, certianly wasn't meaning to be insulting. It's just that Bigtime traffic is managed, so intermittent international performance variations are an expected part of the service. Certainly if this is new, log it, but just be aware that there may not be a simple way to identify the difference between an expected result of hte traffic management and a genuine fault giving pretty similar symptoms.

Unfortunately with flat rate plans like Bigtime, traffic allocated to the product has to scale with number of users, not just as demand (from existing customers) increases. I'm sure you can see how if a fixed number of customers pay a fixed rate each month, but all want to download more and more each month - there's no extra revenue to fund the extra bandwidth.

Finally, the idea for a plan with a guaranteed international CIR is a nice idea, but I'm afraid that $10-$20 won't buy anything like 512kbit. Not even close, not even at the wholesale traded level that ISPs buy at. I can't give out that number obviously, but it's no big secret if you dig around a little.

Of course all of this might change if the planned cable announced today actually goes ahead - I'm sure another provider will drop prices somewhat, if only because there's more capacity into NZ.

Cheers - N




--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


8033 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  # 306361 11-Mar-2010 18:41
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10% packet loss on legitimate single tcp/ip connections would seem to imply Big Time's DPI appliances may be overworked. Perhaps they need to add a few more given customer growth on the plan? Pure speculation on my part but sounds plausible.

Alternatively, perhaps they've tightened shaping rules because of people getting around limits on p2p/filesharing.... and now we have lots normal/legit usage stuff is being mis-classified?

We can only guess really.







3841 posts

Uber Geek

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Lifetime subscriber

# 306372 11-Mar-2010 19:16
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Talkiet: Sorry, certianly wasn't meaning to be insulting. It's just that Bigtime traffic is managed, so intermittent international performance variations are an expected part of the service. Certainly if this is new, log it, but just be aware that there may not be a simple way to identify the difference between an expected result of hte traffic management and a genuine fault giving pretty similar symptoms.

Unfortunately with flat rate plans like Bigtime, traffic allocated to the product has to scale with number of users, not just as demand (from existing customers) increases. I'm sure you can see how if a fixed number of customers pay a fixed rate each month, but all want to download more and more each month - there's no extra revenue to fund the extra bandwidth.

Finally, the idea for a plan with a guaranteed international CIR is a nice idea, but I'm afraid that $10-$20 won't buy anything like 512kbit. Not even close, not even at the wholesale traded level that ISPs buy at. I can't give out that number obviously, but it's no big secret if you dig around a little.

Of course all of this might change if the planned cable announced today actually goes ahead - I'm sure another provider will drop prices somewhat, if only because there's more capacity into NZ.

Cheers - N


I'm afraid i'm all too familiar with telecom staff having a "It's Go Large/Big Time so any fault or problem you have is due to shaping" mentality. The rational part of my brain knows you/tdgeek/doozy are nice helpful people, but the part of my subconciuous that wants to commit tyrannicide on your helpdesk appears to be leaking through and making me a tad defensive.. Apologies for that.

I'd argue that plans like Big Time should be costed to achieve only very minimal profits simply for the advantage of putting all the heavy users in one place where they can be controlled.

Telecom is the majority shareholder of Southern Cross Cables Ltd. They are basically pricegouging themselves, so that they can claim "We pay XYZ amount for bandwidth which we must pass on to our customers".

In my dream world our government is going to compulsorily renationalize Telecom (& its share of SCC) and make it a not for profit devoted to giving NZ's the best broadband in the world. But I suspect I might have to move to south east asia or scandanvia to find a government that cares about that sort of thing.







Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.


518 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 306373 11-Mar-2010 19:20
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Talkiet:

Unfortunately with flat rate plans like Bigtime, traffic allocated to the product has to scale with number of users, not just as demand (from existing customers) increases. I'm sure you can see how if a fixed number of customers pay a fixed rate each month, but all want to download more and more each month - there's no extra revenue to fund the extra bandwidth.


Yes i can fully understand you can't expand it due to demand, that makes complete sense and I agree with that, what about if the current allocation is too low to be able to work with? maybe that is need to expand it a little




PC: 3.3ghz Core i5-2500, 8gb DDR3, ATI Radeon 5850, 27" QHD IPS Monitor

Mobile Phone: iPhone 5 32gb Graphite.


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