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suiko
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  #269240 2-Nov-2009 11:56
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Yeah it's definitely at telecom's end. I took a bunch of latency screenshots throughout this weekend and all of them were around 15000ms except during unmanaged times. For clarity, I even took one at 1:57am (managed) with 15663 ping and then another 8 minutes later (i.e unmanaged) at 2:05am with a near-perfect 185 ping. I'm gonna stick 'em all together and send them off to telecom soon

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tdgeek
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  #269454 2-Nov-2009 22:13
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Neochick:  I don't think its going to help much either. All I am really looking for is something I can take back to Telecom and say 'See, its NOT a problem at NCSoft, so it must be a problem with you"

Hi Neochick

Telecom is interested in helping with issues, so please feel free to contact us at the Telecom website, Contact Us.

Regarding NCSoft, we have had issues that we have worked through with them. As I understand, their traffic is based upon a P2P type protocol, so they have had issues with any ISP that manages P2P. We have been in contact in the past to resolve that. They also has server issues with the Aion beta, but these things happen. You may wish to Google the keywords    NCSoft latency   for background.  If there are current issues, we do want to know.

On a general stance, given some threads here:  We are finding that Big Time is working well. Users on these and other forums do say they can game, and YouTube, etc. We already know that. We have also had some issues that we have resolved. If as at the moment there are no issues with shaping, we are seeing some users with issues, but these are unlikely to be Big Time related, but we do wish to look at these.

When we hear some users quoting pings of 15,000, there is clearly a major issue. Big Time adds a little latency for the duratioin that the traffic goes through our shaping device, enoug to see, not enough to cause high latency. For example I got a tracert today for a user who had concerns over WOW 100% lost packets. That particular issue was that WOW does not allow a ping to their final server, to avoid DOS attacked, hence the 100% figure, but interestingly, the pings to WOW LAX were 150-160ms, which is not too bad.  

My point is that we are not shaping heavily, so any poor speed or latency issues are not going to be Big Time related. It will manage speed and add some latency, but the latter is not high, and the speed we can shape to is much faster than required.

So, to help you, help us with useful details, ensure that you restart the router, make sure no other online apps are running, do a speedtest if you wish, and tracert. The more info we get the more we can investigate.   

Cheers to all

Tony, Telecom/ORT
  

c4bb0ose

51 posts

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  #269480 2-Nov-2009 23:29
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tdgeek: Neochick:  I don't think its going to help much either. All I am really looking for is something I can take back to Telecom and say 'See, its NOT a problem at NCSoft, so it must be a problem with you"

Hi Neochick

Telecom is interested in helping with issues, so please feel free to contact us at the Telecom website, Contact Us.

Regarding NCSoft, we have had issues that we have worked through with them. As I understand, their traffic is based upon a P2P type protocol, so they have had issues with any ISP that manages P2P. We have been in contact in the past to resolve that. They also has server issues with the Aion beta, but these things happen. You may wish to Google the keywords    NCSoft latency   for background.  If there are current issues, we do want to know.

On a general stance, given some threads here:  We are finding that Big Time is working well. Users on these and other forums do say they can game, and YouTube, etc. We already know that. We have also had some issues that we have resolved. If as at the moment there are no issues with shaping, we are seeing some users with issues, but these are unlikely to be Big Time related, but we do wish to look at these.

When we hear some users quoting pings of 15,000, there is clearly a major issue. Big Time adds a little latency for the duratioin that the traffic goes through our shaping device, enoug to see, not enough to cause high latency. For example I got a tracert today for a user who had concerns over WOW 100% lost packets. That particular issue was that WOW does not allow a ping to their final server, to avoid DOS attacked, hence the 100% figure, but interestingly, the pings to WOW LAX were 150-160ms, which is not too bad.  

My point is that we are not shaping heavily, so any poor speed or latency issues are not going to be Big Time related. It will manage speed and add some latency, but the latter is not high, and the speed we can shape to is much faster than required.

So, to help you, help us with useful details, ensure that you restart the router, make sure no other online apps are running, do a speedtest if you wish, and tracert. The more info we get the more we can investigate.   

Cheers to all

Tony, Telecom/ORT
  


ok so what is it, because I no people who are on your network that do not have any issue running guild wars, wear as neo chick and myself and possbly a few others on here have expressed our troubles with big timees connection with ncsofts servers. ncsofts games do not use p2p connection, rather TCP data transfering which is utilised by p2p applications aka torrents, and one of the theorys floating around is that your shaping system cannot tell the difference between p2p packests and say guild wars packets.

again theory

doin a speed test is going to do nothing because the speed test does not use TCP data transfering, and a tracert does not either,


as it does make sense that any games last hop wwould not respond do prevent a DOS attack packet loss eles weres kinda of bleh

so is there any way we can make it clear what is causing this problem and fix it?




Lias
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  #269483 2-Nov-2009 23:58
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My point is that we are not shaping heavily, so any poor speed or latency issues are not going to be Big Time related. It will manage speed and add some latency, but the latter is not high, and the speed we can shape to is much faster than required.

 


I still see 40-60ms difference between the latency on uncapped plans and Big Time during peak hour, and am grumbling via helpdesk (well actually Complex Support seeing as they took over the ticket). Apart from that I'm reasonably happy still. I'll be less happy if they dont get around to crediting me for those few weeks when the shaping was all up the sh*t and we had insane peakhour latency.




I'm a geek, a gamer, a dad and an IT Professional. I have a full rack home lab, size 15 feet, an epic beard and Asperger's. I'm a bit of a Cypherpunk, who believes information wants to be free and the Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.


ArcticSilver
713 posts

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  #269484 3-Nov-2009 00:09
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The Facts:

I run a proxy service that sends gaming data tunneled to a server beside the Aion servers.
With this server i get a 250ms response time.
Without, i cannot play. (1k+)

Aion uses TCP (rather than UDP which is generally used in games for its speed).


Out of those facts i get:

TCP is generally used for content that needs to be reliable, it has a higher response time. This means it is generally used for things such as downloading.

This also means that generally routing wise, UDP would come first. This would quite possibly be happening all through NZ and most of the US (since the servers are on the east coast).


Other information:

Before Big Times shaping really came into affect i could play, with a ping in game of arond 650. Though this is high it sounds like it is pritty standard for most people from NZ without a proxy service. Which is understandable with TCP.

I have surveyed some of my clients, it only seems to be the big time users that cannot play without the proxy.

So naturally i come to the conclusion that it is most likely to be a issue with big times shaping policies. But, do remember, close all other connections to test, torrenting will not help.


This is my observation anyway. Hopefully it gets resolved!




doozy
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  #269493 3-Nov-2009 07:02
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Lias:

My point is that we are not shaping heavily, so any poor speed or latency issues are not going to be Big Time related. It will manage speed and add some latency, but the latter is not high, and the speed we can shape to is much faster than required.

 


I still see 40-60ms difference between the latency on uncapped plans and Big Time during peak hour, and am grumbling via helpdesk (well actually Complex Support seeing as they took over the ticket). Apart from that I'm reasonably happy still. I'll be less happy if they dont get around to crediting me for those few weeks when the shaping was all up the sh*t and we had insane peakhour latency.



Big Time is always going to have higher international latency than other plans, 30-40ms is completely acceptable.  Again, if you need a low latency plan, Big Time is the wrong one for you.




Tarawera Ultra 2015 done, bring on 2016

tdgeek
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  #269499 3-Nov-2009 07:29
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c4bb0ose
ok so what is it, because I no people who are on your network that do not have any issue running guild wars, wear as neo chick and myself and possbly a few others on here have expressed our troubles with big timees connection with ncsofts servers. ncsofts games do not use p2p connection, rather TCP data transfering which is utilised by p2p applications aka torrents, and one of the theorys floating around is that your shaping system cannot tell the difference between p2p packests and say guild wars packets.

again theory




No theory. As I stated it uises a p2P "type" of protocol, hence whu other ISP;s that shape traffic have isssues, refer to the Google search I suggested.





doin a speed test is going to do nothing because the speed test does not use TCP data transfering, and a tracert does not either,




You misunderstand, a speedtest and tracert will give us information of your connection, so that these can be assessed and eliminated



as it does make sense that any games last hop wwould not respond do prevent a DOS attack packet loss eles weres kinda of bleh




I didn't say otherwise, it does make sense. This was an example of a user misinterpreting the tracert to blame the plan.



so is there any way we can make it clear what is causing this problem and fix it?


As I mentioned, giving us as much information as possible is useful for us to investigate. If you are having isues, but other Big Time user are not, then there is another issue.



Neochick
49 posts

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  #269516 3-Nov-2009 08:43
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tdgeek: When I have some free time later on this week I will be doing some testing so I can get some data.


One more assignment to do *horray*

c4bb0ose

51 posts

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  #269671 3-Nov-2009 16:12
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tdgeek: c4bb0ose
ok so what is it, because I no people who are on your network that do not have any issue running guild wars, wear as neo chick and myself and possbly a few others on here have expressed our troubles with big timees connection with ncsofts servers. ncsofts games do not use p2p connection, rather TCP data transfering which is utilised by p2p applications aka torrents, and one of the theorys floating around is that your shaping system cannot tell the difference between p2p packests and say guild wars packets.

again theory




No theory. As I stated it uises a p2P "type" of protocol, hence whu other ISP;s that shape traffic have isssues, refer to the Google search I suggested.





doin a speed test is going to do nothing because the speed test does not use TCP data transfering, and a tracert does not either,




You misunderstand, a speedtest and tracert will give us information of your connection, so that these can be assessed and eliminated



as it does make sense that any games last hop wwould not respond do prevent a DOS attack packet loss eles weres kinda of bleh




I didn't say otherwise, it does make sense. This was an example of a user misinterpreting the tracert to blame the plan.



so is there any way we can make it clear what is causing this problem and fix it?


As I mentioned, giving us as much information as possible is useful for us to investigate. If you are having isues, but other Big Time user are not, then there is another issue.


I think because more than one user has this type of problem then you could illiminate single connection problems

Lias
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  #269693 3-Nov-2009 17:32
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doozy:
Big Time is always going to have higher international latency than other plans, 30-40ms is completely acceptable.  Again, if you need a low latency plan, Big Time is the wrong one for you.


For the first several months (IE until "the major shaping issues") Big time did NOT have any increased peaktime latency for me.

If it had been laggy during peaktime from day one, I _might_ have been willing to accept it. They provided a certain level of service initially, critically including the time period where I could legally cancel the contract. I expect them to continue providing that level of service if not forever then at least as long as I'm locked into their contract.

I honestly don't think that's unreasonable.




I'm a geek, a gamer, a dad and an IT Professional. I have a full rack home lab, size 15 feet, an epic beard and Asperger's. I'm a bit of a Cypherpunk, who believes information wants to be free and the Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.


doozy
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  #269774 3-Nov-2009 21:17
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Lias:
doozy:
Big Time is always going to have higher international latency than other plans, 30-40ms is completely acceptable.  Again, if you need a low latency plan, Big Time is the wrong one for you.


For the first several months (IE until "the major shaping issues") Big time did NOT have any increased peaktime latency for me.

If it had been laggy during peaktime from day one, I _might_ have been willing to accept it. They provided a certain level of service initially, critically including the time period where I could legally cancel the contract. I expect them to continue providing that level of service if not forever then at least as long as I'm locked into their contract.

I honestly don't think that's unreasonable.



If you can show me, absolutely in a binding contract, where it said that a certain service level will be maintained for the life of the plan and/or your contract I will accept a 30-40ms peak time latency increase is unreasonable.





Tarawera Ultra 2015 done, bring on 2016

BigMal
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  #269779 3-Nov-2009 21:24
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On a more positive note for the last few weeks streaming video (youtube etc) has been awful and unusable but for the last two days has been screaming along beautifully. Still can't play Madden on my PS3 though :-(

munchkin
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  #269780 3-Nov-2009 21:25
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doozy: 


[...]

If you can show me, absolutely in a binding contract, where it said that a certain service level will be maintained for the life of the plan and/or your contract I will accept a 30-40ms peak time latency increase is unreasonable.




No ISP would be stupid enough to put a SLA in a residential contract.

c4bb0ose

51 posts

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  #269794 3-Nov-2009 22:01
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munchkin:
doozy: 


[...]

If you can show me, absolutely in a binding contract, where it said that a certain service level will be maintained for the life of the plan and/or your contract I will accept a 30-40ms peak time latency increase is unreasonable.




No ISP would be stupid enough to put a SLA in a residential contract.


on top of that this whole thread, my thread, is based upon massive increases in ms were talking 1000ms+ 30-40 ms increase from what id normaly have on TCP products is nothing and id accept that out right atm.

Talkiet
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  #269798 3-Nov-2009 22:07
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c4bb0ose:
munchkin:
doozy: 


[...]

If you can show me, absolutely in a binding contract, where it said that a certain service level will be maintained for the life of the plan and/or your contract I will accept a 30-40ms peak time latency increase is unreasonable.




No ISP would be stupid enough to put a SLA in a residential contract.


on top of that this whole thread, my thread, is based upon massive increases in ms were talking 1000ms+ 30-40 ms increase from what id normaly have on TCP products is nothing and id accept that out right atm.


I'm afraid that you have been speaking about application response times and almost interchangably comparing them to icmp echo times. For some reason, some people have the impression that one should equal the other.

Not always the case, and in a managed product like BigTime, far less likely that they will match at all times of the day.

As has been pointed out a few times, BigTime is not the recommended plan for customers who want low latency and consistent high performance. The Telecom Pro and Business Broadband plans deliver that.

I can't for the life of me see the gun pointed at your head forcing you to stay on BigTime.

Cheers - N






--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


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