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13 posts

Geek


  # 450380 21-Mar-2011 14:00
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Even Telecom's Customer Resolutions Group get misinformation from their own staff. 

If the MPF is being cutover you have no access. You can't have reduced speed without a physical connection.
Metallic Path Facility (MPF) 
A circuit comprising a pair of twisted copper conductors between a demarcation point at the end-user's premises and an exchange that conveys signals when connected to an electronic communications network.

Telecom have stated in the below email that not all Roadside Cabinets have Fibre connected.
I agree that Telecom Tech's should be sent to Chch but my problem is why are customers being migrated to the Cabinets before they are qualified. Also could they get their staff to work OT or get some of the laid of Downers engineers in to help out.
Telecom wouldn't try this on their corporate customers


Hi Jason,

Thank you for your email. I would still like to clarify the following.

Quote
The decision to reroute the cable connection through the Roadside Cabinet was deemed the most appropriate by Chorus

From your answer it sounds like I was migrated to the Roadside Cabinet after the fault, is that correct?

Quote
not all cabinets have been upgraded to the fibre optic connections at this stage. As your connection was directly to the exchange prior to the changes, you will still be connected by the copper cable. Therefore any increase in cable length will affect your attainable connect rates. It is important to note that as the cables do not always travel directly from one location to another, physical distance and cable distance can differ.

Are you saying that Telecom knew that customers would have speed issues due to the fact their copper lengths would increase due to the fact no Fibre was installed? I understand that I’m running copper from my house. So you are saying because the Roadside Cabinet is running copper back to the Exchange this has increased my distance to the Exchange? I am 1km from the exchange which is why I was running at 10mb. The Roadside cabinet is 400m from me. Is there no repeater in the Roadside Cabinet to boost the signal?

Quote
With regards to the comments on your splitter, if you are using additional filters on jack points within the house, or the splitter is faulty, this can affect the broadband connect rates. If you believe the splitter to be faulty, I can arrange the broadband helpdesk to contact you to diagnose accordingly.

There have been no modifications at my house. A VisionStream Tech who visited the Exchange told me that I was sharing a connection, am I split off a port with another customer at the Exchange or Roadside Cabinet? This might explain my reduced speed, which is half what I previously had.

 

Quote
Information regarding the broadband speeds is detailed in the Broadband Terms and Conditions, which can be found online under the Broadband Terms and Conditions, specifically the Service Reliability section, which states:

Service ReliabilityTelecom is unable to provide specific performance guarantees, however we are committed to providing a consistent and reliable service. While we always strive to provide a consistent service, there are a number of factors that influence reliability. For this reason, we do not guarantee connection speed bandwidth, latency (delay) or bit rate through our broadband network at any one point in time.

If Telecom was committed to providing a consistent and reliable service, why are customers being migrated to the Roadside Cabinets before they have been qualified? 
Does the ‘number of factors’ include Telecom making changes which affect your service? Because that is exactly what has happened here.

Quote
Telecom reviews each connection on an individual basis and, considering your connect rates are between 4Mbit/s – 5Mbit/s, this is clearly above the national average for connect rate speeds.

They may be above the national average but I was happily working at 10mb before Telecom migrated me to a Roadside Cabinet that was clearly not production ready.

Quote
As explained previously in our conversations, your broadband connection is still fed from the exchange, so you are not currently connected to an inactive device. Once the cabinetisation process is complete and your broadband is connected to the functioning cabinet, your speeds should improve.

If I am not directly connected to the Exchange and the Roadside Cabinet has not been ‘activated’ it must be an ‘inactive device’ as it is just passing the DSL signal back to the exchange. My speeds should improve, are you saying that there is a possibility that my speeds may not increase from 5mb? When the Cabinetisation process is complete, will it have Fibre? Or will it still be on copper back to the Exchange?

 

Quote
With respect to your Total Home package

That’s ok. I just wanted to keep my options open. 

 




16 March 2011 

Dear Richard, 

Re: Complaint Reference Number TC00037020 

Thank you for your reply dated 15th March regarding the further queries you have raised. I will address each one as you have provided them. 

The decision to reroute the cable connection through the Roadside Cabinet was deemed the most appropriate by Chorus, who are responsible for maintaining and upgrading the network throughout New Zealand, on behalf of all providers. While Visionstream are technicians in the area contracted to carry out the work, the roll out of upgrades throughout the country are managed by Chorus. As your area is scheduled for cabinetisation, and the work done is in line with this, there is no option for you to return to the previous network layout. 

While Chorus is undergoing a nationwide upgrade to connect cabinets and exchanges by cable, not all cabinets have been upgraded to the fibre optic connections at this stage. As your connection was directly to the exchange prior to the changes, you will still be connected by the copper cable. Therefore any increase in cable length will affect your attainable connect rates. It is important to note that as the cables do not always travel directly from one location to another, physical distance and cable distance can differ. 

With regards to the comments on your splitter, if you are using additional filters on jack points within the house, or the splitter is faulty, this can affect the broadband connect rates. If you believe the splitter to be faulty, I can arrange the broadband helpdesk to contact you to diagnose accordingly. 

Information regarding the broadband speeds is detailed in the Broadband Terms and Conditions, which can be found online  under the Broadband Terms and Conditions, specifically the Service Reliability section, which states:

While we always strive to provide a consistent service, there are a number of factors that influence reliability. For this reason, we do not guarantee connection speed bandwidth, latency (delay) or bit rate through our broadband network at any one point in time.

In terms of acceptable limits, due to the nature of the technology used, there are no specific limits defined. Telecom reviews each connection on an individual basis and, considering your connect rates are between 4Mbit/s – 5Mbit/s, this is clearly above the national average for connect rate speeds. 

With respect to your Total Home package, our records show you connected to the Total Home Starter packaged on August 11th 2010.. At this time, you entered into a 24 month contract term with an advised $176.89 (Excl. GST) Early Termination Fee. This information can be seen on page three of your September 2010 account statement. As broadband speeds are not guaranteed, they can not be considered part of the contract and therefore no breach of your terms has occurred. In January we introduced the option to connect with no contracts, however customers who were within a contract at this time must see them out. 

As explained previously in our conversations, your broadband connection is still fed from the exchange, so you are not currently connected to an inactive device. Once the cabinetisation process is complete and your broadband is connected to the functioning cabinet, your speeds should improve. 

Regrettably, as there is no current timeframe for this due to the limited resources as a result of the Christchurch earthquake, this is a situation that requires patience. 

I trust I have adequately addressed your further queries.




 15 March 2011 

Dear Richard, 

Re: Complaint Reference Number TC00037020 

Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to investigate your concerns regarding the change in your broadband connect rate. At your request I have detailed the information below for your benefit. 

As you are aware, during February you experienced a fault on your line which resulted in your landline and broadband service being disrupted. A technician was sent out to your area and resolved the matter, restoring your services. After this, you noticed the reduced connect rate on your line. 

The area you are in is currently going through the cabinetisation process, designed to improve the broadband for customers throughout New Zealand. As the fault occurred during this period, your connection was repaired to align with the planned improvements. To achieve this, the cable connecting your area to the exchange was rerouted through the cabinet. As the cabinet is not currently ready to act as a mini exchange, this resulted in additional cable distance between your home and the exchange which in turn has affected your connect rates. 

The reduced connect rates will be improved once the cabinetisation has completed, regrettably however the events in Christchurch have put a strain on the resources available and this process has been delayed. Therefore, while the work is confirmed to be undertaken, our network team are unable to provide a timeframe for it. 

It is very disappointing to hear the varied information that has been provided to you as you attempted to have this matter addressed. Having experienced the same level of differing information during my investigation I can appreciate how frustrated it would have made you. I can assure you this matter will be raised with the appropriate departments for review and improvement. 

With regards to the reduced connect rates, as Telecom is unable to guarantee specific speeds with the broadband service and the connect rates are well within the acceptable limits for broadband, we would not be in a position to consider compensation. As discussed over the phone, your broadband contract also does not include a specific speed and therefore we would not consider removing the contract term. 

As per our phone discussion, for the two instances where a technician was due but failed to arrive at the time provided, I have applied a credit for one month of your Total Home rental for each instance.. This is a credit of $182.60 (Excl. GST), and will appear on your April account statement. 

I trust this addresses the concerns you have raised, if you have any further enquires please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Yours sincerely 

 

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  # 450393 21-Mar-2011 14:45
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In your situation you've obviously being impacted by a lack of resources to complete the work in your area.

A cabinet has to have a fibre connection before it can be live. Is is the only way that backhaul can be provided for the ISAM to deliver IP services. Voice services are still typically provided over copper from the exchange to the cabinet but in a growing number of cabinets voice is delivered over that fibre using a VMUX.

You've inferred that most cabinets don't have fibre or DSL which is a blatently incorrect statement. Once your cabinet is cut over you can expect sync speeds to increase considerably, especially if you're only ~400m away.

 
 
 
 


13 posts

Geek


  # 450404 21-Mar-2011 15:40
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sbiddle: In your situation you've obviously being impacted by a lack of resources to complete the work in your area.

A cabinet has to have a fibre connection before it can be live. Is is the only way that backhaul can be provided for the ISAM to deliver IP services. Voice services are still typically provided over copper from the exchange to the cabinet but in a growing number of cabinets voice is delivered over that fibre using a VMUX.

You've inferred that most cabinets don't have fibre or DSL which is a blatently incorrect statement. Once your cabinet is cut over you can expect sync speeds to increase considerably, especially if you're only ~400m away.


Why would Telecom migrate customers to a Roadside Cabinet if it was not production ready? as you say above Telecom have not completed the work required. I was cut over about 2 weeks before the Chch quake.
As there is no Fibre and / or DSL in the Cabinet, DSL is provided by the Exchange hence the increase in distance and my speed reduction.

Quote from Telecom
While Chorus is undergoing a nationwide upgrade to connect cabinets and exchanges by cable, not all cabinets have been upgraded to the fibre optic connections at this stage. 

Jason Burns from Telecom provided the above quote. Are you saying he lied to me? 
If the cabinet was running Fibre I should at least get the same speed or better as the Cabinet is 400m away. A tech came onsite and showed me were it was. 
Can I ask where you got your info from? 

64 posts

Master Geek


  # 450413 21-Mar-2011 16:02
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Next time, I'm sure the Christchurch earthquake which has taken considerable resources from around NZ can be scheduled to after the due completion date for your cabinet.

13 posts

Geek


  # 450418 21-Mar-2011 16:22
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OMGpjay: Next time, I'm sure the Christchurch earthquake which has taken considerable resources from around NZ can be scheduled to after the due completion date for your cabinet.


Did you read my previous post or should I spell it out for you?
Quote
I agree that Telecom Tech's should be sent to Chch but my problem is why are customers being migrated to the Cabinets before they are qualified. 

You can clearly see from the emails from Telecom that people are being migrated before the cabinets are ready. If they are 'live' then everything should work. What would Air NZ, Fulton Hogan, ANZ, DOL, DOA, DOJ say if Telecom migrated them to a new network that was not fully operational. By the way they are Telecom / Gen-i customers.
Also why can't they bring in extra staff on contract for 3-6 months to cover? they did this with the Asian crew recently.

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  # 450420 21-Mar-2011 16:36
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boost3d:
Why would Telecom migrate customers to a Roadside Cabinet if it was not production ready? as you say above Telecom have not completed the work required. I was cut over about 2 weeks before the Chch quake.
As there is no Fibre and / or DSL in the Cabinet, DSL is provided by the Exchange hence the increase in distance and my speed reduction.


Because the other option would be to repair a cable installation that would become redundant as soon as the cabinet was livened up, or leave you with no service until the cabinet was ready to go.

The first option would result in wasted time and resources in telecom paying someone to do something twice, the second would annoy you.

I really dont get why you are making complaints to telecom about this? they have to patch people thru the new frame in the new cabinets before they can connect the gear to those customers. I know that in some situations there has been a relocation from the old small box and the new cabinet which is where you will be getting extra length from. The response from telecom says you are getting between 4 and 5 megs still, what exactly is the problem? I was only on 3 on a good day before we got a cabinet so I dont really think you have any valid reson to be complaining to them.






Richard rich.ms

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  # 450439 21-Mar-2011 17:53
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Napster what city and suburb do you live in?

 
 
 
 


13 posts

Geek


# 450449 21-Mar-2011 18:43
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richms:
boost3d:
Why would Telecom migrate customers to a Roadside Cabinet if it was not production ready? as you say above Telecom have not completed the work required. I was cut over about 2 weeks before the Chch quake.
As there is no Fibre and / or DSL in the Cabinet, DSL is provided by the Exchange hence the increase in distance and my speed reduction.


Because the other option would be to repair a cable installation that would become redundant as soon as the cabinet was livened up, or leave you with no service until the cabinet was ready to go.

The first option would result in wasted time and resources in telecom paying someone to do something twice, the second would annoy you.

I really dont get why you are making complaints to telecom about this? they have to patch people thru the new frame in the new cabinets before they can connect the gear to those customers. I know that in some situations there has been a relocation from the old small box and the new cabinet which is where you will be getting extra length from. The response from telecom says you are getting between 4 and 5 megs still, what exactly is the problem? I was only on 3 on a good day before we got a cabinet so I dont really think you have any valid reson to be complaining to them.





Quote
repair a cable installation

This wasn't a new service. I was working at 10mb before I lost my phone and broadband service. I logged a fault and the next day I was hooked up to the Roadside Cabinet at half the speed I had the day earlier. I later found out there were Chorus Techs outside my house that caused my fault.

Quote
I really don’t get why you are making complaints to telecom about this?

Because they are connecting customers to a service which is not production ready, if it was it would be working fully before the migration. A comment I got from CTS was that customers don't usually check their speeds.
The complaint was also that I was promised a Tech onsite on 2 separate occasions. They had 4-5 days’ notice, first time the Tech didn't turn up, Second I had a call 1hour after the appointment to say they needed to talk to a manager before sending someone out (they had 4 days to do this) and the other times were no call backs.
I'm a contractor and get paid by the hour, I wasted 2 half days waiting at home for a Tech to arrive.

Quote
they have to patch people thru the new frame in the new cabinets before they can connect the gear to those customers.

As soon as the Tech reconnected me I had phone and broadband working but at a reduced speed, so something was not 'live' either Fibre was not in or DSL was not active on that cabinet.Surely this doesn't take more than 2 weeks. The Quake occurred about 2 weeks after the fault was logged.

Quote
I was only on 3 on a good day before we got a cabinet so I don’t really think you have any valid reason to be complaining to them.

You don't think I have a valid complaint because my broadband speed halved, I was lied to and Telecom Techs didn't show up? 
It's people that don't complain that allow companies to get away with this. 

I posted the emails to show sbiddle that Telecom have confirmed that not all Roadside Cabinets have Fibre connected when customers are migrated. My complaint has helped them provide a better service to us their customers. yeah right 


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  # 450450 21-Mar-2011 18:56
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Its not that the cabinet doesnt have fiber, the cabinet will have nothing in it other than a bunch of wires joined together now!

Broadband is a best effort service, you have complained that you have low speeds, been told why it is happening and I assume given a timeframe for the cabinet to be fully livened up.

What attenuation are you seeing? If you are on the cabinet you should be seeing at most about 12dB downstream attenuation, less than that since you are only 400m away from it. If you are still up in the 40's then your connection is still being served from the exchange, and the cables are just now going thru the cabinet.

There is no way that they can physically connect every single pair to the cabinet and liven it up in a length of time that people would accept as downtime so they have to do some before others, and then liven the cabinet when they are all ready to go.

If Air NZ, Fulton Hogan, ANZ, DOL, DOA, DOJ had a circuit, it would have a SLA because they are paying a premium for it, you are a domestic DSL customer without one, you have best effort service, and they are putting in their best effort during this migration period given the events that have happened that have caused them to have to reallocate labour to fixing people who have no connection.




Richard rich.ms



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Master Geek


  # 450458 21-Mar-2011 19:20
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bnapi: Napster what city and suburb do you live in?



I am in Maraetai, Beachlands.

13 posts

Geek


  # 450484 21-Mar-2011 20:17
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richms: Its not that the cabinet doesnt have fiber, the cabinet will have nothing in it other than a bunch of wires joined together now!

Broadband is a best effort service, you have complained that you have low speeds, been told why it is happening and I assume given a timeframe for the cabinet to be fully livened up.

What attenuation are you seeing? If you are on the cabinet you should be seeing at most about 12dB downstream attenuation, less than that since you are only 400m away from it. If you are still up in the 40's then your connection is still being served from the exchange, and the cables are just now going thru the cabinet.

There is no way that they can physically connect every single pair to the cabinet and liven it up in a length of time that people would accept as downtime so they have to do some before others, and then liven the cabinet when they are all ready to go.

If Air NZ, Fulton Hogan, ANZ, DOL, DOA, DOJ had a circuit, it would have a SLA because they are paying a premium for it, you are a domestic DSL customer without one, you have best effort service, and they are putting in their best effort during this migration period given the events that have happened that have caused them to have to reallocate labour to fixing people who have no connection.



Quote
It’s not that the cabinet doesnt have fiber, the cabinet will have nothing in it other than a bunch of wires joined together now! 

If it has nothing but a bunch of wires, why are people being migrated to it? Have a look at Chorus' website, they have info on what is in the Roadside Cabinets.
I think you are missing my point. I wanted to know why the Roadside Cabinet was not ready before the migration. They can shift the phones over and they work, it may be using copper back to the Exchange, I’m not sure.  For the Cabinet to run DSL you need Fibre, if there is no Fibre you connect back to the local Exchange via copper which increases your distance hence reduced speeds.  

Quote
Broadband is a best effort service, you have complained that you have low speeds, been told why it is happening and I assume given a timeframe for the cabinet to be fully livened up. 

If you are running at a certain speed you have an expectation that it will continue.

Quote from my email

Service Reliability
Telecom is unable to provide specific performance guarantees, however we are committed to providing a consistent and reliable service. While we always strive to provide a consistent service, there are a number of factors that influence reliability. For this reason, we do not guarantee connection speed bandwidth, latency (delay) or bit rate through our broadband network at any one point in time.

If Telecom was committed to providing a consistent and reliable service, why are customers being migrated to the Roadside Cabinets before they have been qualified?Does the ‘number of factors’ include Telecom making changes which affect your service? Because that is exactly what has happened here.

Quote
What attenuation are you seeing?

I’ll check it out when I get home.

Quote
you are a domestic DSL customer without one, you have best effort service

Telecom’s best effort was to migrate customers onto a service that was not ready. If you read my previous post you will see that the migration was 2 weeks before the Chch Quake.
‘Best effect service’ –  Where did you get that from? I hope that doesn’t include misinformation and not turning up for appointments.
Telecom provide a service for which we pay a premium for.

The smaller Fulton Hogan and Downer Works construction sites have DSL to reduce costs / no other service in the area and with upto 10 staff. I can see problems when these sites are migrated as they download a lot of data ie maps etc. Also not all the sites are setup for local printing. 
 

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  # 450488 21-Mar-2011 20:25
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They are migrating you so that it is ready to go once the gear goes in and the fiber is pushed to it. The added copper length and attenuation will be a side effect of having the cables rerouted and joined in the new cabinet.

What was the original date that your cabinet was due to go live? Keep in mind that chorus have said that there will be possible problems for up to 3 months before the go live date, and that date is likely to have changed with more urgent things needing to be done elsewhere to restore service.

Its quite possible that the appointments were pushed thru to techs to come out and they just declined it as they already knew that there was nothing to sort out. Its unreasonable to expect a tech to come when they know why it is happening and that they cannot do anything about it.

You are being completely unreasonable in the making of these complaints IMO. You have been told what has happened, wait.




Richard rich.ms

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Geek


  # 450507 21-Mar-2011 21:19
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richms: They are migrating you so that it is ready to go once the gear goes in and the fiber is pushed to it. The added copper length and attenuation will be a side effect of having the cables rerouted and joined in the new cabinet.

What was the original date that your cabinet was due to go live? Keep in mind that chorus have said that there will be possible problems for up to 3 months before the go live date, and that date is likely to have changed with more urgent things needing to be done elsewhere to restore service.

Its quite possible that the appointments were pushed thru to techs to come out and they just declined it as they already knew that there was nothing to sort out. Its unreasonable to expect a tech to come when they know why it is happening and that they cannot do anything about it.

You are being completely unreasonable in the making of these complaints IMO. You have been told what has happened, wait.



Quote
They are migrating you so that it is ready to go once the gear goes in and the fiber is pushed to it. The added copper length and attenuation will be a side effect of having the cables rerouted and joined in the new cabinet.

Which is my point, why migrate users when the DSL service is not active in the Roadside Cabinet.
Since the Roadside Cabinet doesn’t connect to the Exchange via Fibre, they don’t have to wait until all customers have been migrated first. The added copper length is because the Roadside Cabinet can’t run DSL yet so it uses the Copper back to the local Exchange.

Quote
What was the original date that your cabinet was due to go live?

Go live date is April but they were ahead of schedule.
My problem is not that I have to now wait, though I am not happy about it I know that Chch should and is taking priority.

Quote
It’s unreasonable to expect a tech to come when they know why it is happening and that they cannot do anything about it.

Should I not receive a courtesy call so I’m not waiting around for them?  Or is that part of the ‘best Service’

Quote
You are being completely unreasonable in the making of these complaints IMO. You have been told what has happened, wait.

The complaint was


  1. Roadside Cabinet not production ready.

  2. Appointments not meet.

  3. Misinformation, even Telecom staff were not upfront to their own staff.


It took 5 weeks for telecom to confirm that I was on the Roadside Cabinet. During that time I was told by the onsite Techs that I was connected to the Roadside Cabinet.  Telecom CTS / Xtra kept telling me that because my DSL was running on the Exchange I couldn’t be connected to the Roadside Cabinet. CTS kept wanting to send Techs out.
You can see that I got a confirmation email on the 15th March after requesting it. 
I’ve got no problem waiting as I’ve already stated, I just want Telecom to be honest and provide the correct info.  If my complaint was unreasonable, why would Telecom’s email agree with me and they are investigating?  (matter will be raised with the appropriate departments for review and improvement)
 


 

 

 

 

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  # 450510 21-Mar-2011 21:34
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boost3d:
Which is my point, why migrate users when the DSL service is not active in the Roadside Cabinet.
Since the Roadside Cabinet doesn’t connect to the Exchange via Fibre, they don’t have to wait until all customers have been migrated first. The added copper length is because the Roadside Cabinet can’t run DSL yet so it uses the Copper back to the local Exchange.





There is a migration process for every cabinet.  In the case of *EVERY* cabinet cutover *ALL* customers will experience a period of possibly degraded service. MPF's have to often be cut to join them into the new MDF's for exchange and customer wiring in the cabinet. You obviously have no appreciation for the time and skill required to do this. The cabinet connects to the exchange via both fibre and copper. The copper is maintained only for legacy voice services, and in some cabinets is not retained at all and voice is run over fibre using VMUX's at both ends.

It's obvious you're in the situation you're in because of a fault that has lead Chorus to move forward work since the cabinet was already planned.
  
Every whisper cabinet has fibre going to it, I'm not sure what part of this you don't understand as you've repeatedly made the claim that they don't. There are older passive and first generation active roadside cabinets (typically with Conklin DSLAM's) that don't have fibre as these are fed via E1's.

You also mentioned splitters - if you're running plug in ADSL filters in your house you are probably receiving sub optimal ADSL performance. A master ADSL filter/splitter is the only way to guarantee you're receiving the maximum speed your line allows as poor internal house wiring is one of the biggest factors of ADSL performance. 

While your speeds may be lower I fail to see any of the points you are making. Once your cabinet is upgraded you'll probably experience the joys of 16Mbps + sync speeds.
  

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  # 450532 21-Mar-2011 22:05
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What he said ^^

No point laying extra cables to a whole different cabinet and cutting them over 2-3 times when it can be done in 2 movements.

The Krones are all installed first, wired (when you lose connectivity) in pass-thru mode until the fibre is terminated, and the second half of the cabinet is populated with cards. At which time, the ISAM takes over the signalling.

Be thankfull you have a phone. My cable is broken in 5 places between the cabinet and the exchange. As a result, me and 8 other cabinets are on a pilot VoIP system

They have replaced blanking plates with VoIP cards, that generate a POTs signal to the house and use the fibre back to the NEAX in wellington :)

I couldn't make outgoing calls the past 2 days.

Pre cabinet 4-5mbps
Cabinet copper cutover 3-3.7mbps

2 weeks later, ISAM enabled. 14mbps (this was Nov 2009)

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