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  Reply # 473212 23-May-2011 22:30
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sbiddle:
hamish225: I think we should have a national data cap and an international data cap. and as for not knowing what's national or international, im sure someone could make a checker that you could put a url of a file in and it will tell you where the server is...


How exactly? What you're suggesting is simply not possible in a way that wouldn't completely confuse the average end user.




Come on, people really can't be that retarded? oh I suppose you're right. *loses faith in humanity* 





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  Reply # 473238 24-May-2011 00:14
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hamish225:
sbiddle:
hamish225: I think we should have a national data cap and an international data cap. and as for not knowing what's national or international, im sure someone could make a checker that you could put a url of a file in and it will tell you where the server is...


How exactly? What you're suggesting is simply not possible in a way that wouldn't completely confuse the average end user.




Come on, people really can't be that retarded? oh I suppose you're right. *loses faith in humanity* 


I have a website, nzsnaps.com. It's hosted in the US. I have nzsnaps.co.nz aliased to it.. It redirects to the US website.

I could have www.mynewsite.com and have it served from New Zealand. I could have half the site served from NZ and the other half (all the graphics for example) served from the US.

Now, you try explaining to an ordinary user all of that, and then tell them that any of the 'guidelines' for determining where the site is hosted could change on a minute by minute basis.

Now, write a script for the helpdesk to follow when someone calls in and complains that www.newzealandholidaydestinations.co.nz is actually in the US and they used heaps of data streaming HD video of luxury villa walkthroughs - or streamed music all day every day for a month from www.nzmusicrocks.co.nz.

If you can describe a reliable method for users to determine, instantaneously, with no effort, whether a site has any component served from overseas, and also describe a method for dealing with any billing complaints, and do it so that there is no increased cost to the ISP, then any ISP would hire you in a flash.

Sorry - it's a lovely idea in theory - but it's not feasible. The few sites that ISPs do zero rate are done in such a way that the ISPs have intimate knowledge of how those sites work and where they are located / how they route traffic.

Cheers - N


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 473252 24-May-2011 06:09
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hamish225:
sbiddle:
hamish225: I think we should have a national data cap and an international data cap. and as for not knowing what's national or international, im sure someone could make a checker that you could put a url of a file in and it will tell you where the server is...


How exactly? What you're suggesting is simply not possible in a way that wouldn't completely confuse the average end user.




Come on, people really can't be that retarded? oh I suppose you're right. *loses faith in humanity* 


Maybe you'd like to write us a document describing exactly how it will work - factoring in CDN's and local proxy servers as well.



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  Reply # 473316 24-May-2011 09:31
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scottr: It would have to be pretty compelling to offer something for free, when it still costs money to provide.



What I suggested wouldn't necessarily be free. The home user would still be paying the telco a monthly fee for the connection, and the difference from the current charge could be regained from some sort of profit sharing arrangement with the content providers.
The benefits for the content providers (eg fatso) would be that more people would be able to rent more videos since the data caps and speed limits wouldn't be such an issue. And the telco would benefit from more customers if it was an exclusive deal, or from a share of the profits since it would be easy for them to tell which internet provider the customer was using when renting a movie.

So its more a shift from charging the end user for an internet connection and limiting data to telcos making profits from providing content that users would want to pay for. 

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  Reply # 473413 24-May-2011 13:05
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That kind of vertical integration leads to anti-competitive stuff happening where ISP's have exclusive deals with content providers.

How would the next YouTube or Facebook ever emerge under those conditions?




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  Reply # 473791 25-May-2011 09:02
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Ragnor: That kind of vertical integration leads to anti-competitive stuff happening where ISP's have exclusive deals with content providers.

How would the next YouTube or Facebook ever emerge under those conditions?




YouTube and Facebook are free and they make there money from advertising, there would be nothing preventing YouTube and Facebook alternatives from starting up. The exclusivity of content would only extend as far as to how much the home user gets charged for data. It would be impossible for individual ISP's to allow only there users access to content. The only difference would be data to the content would be free or cheaper for the customer with the ISP with a deal than the data to the same content for a user from from a different ISP.

From New Zealand's perspective, if they ever build enough international fiber connections that allows the price of international data to drop, how would current retail ISP's make enough revenue with the small population size of the country which has been used as a basis for justifying the high prices we currently pay?
I can't see how more than two ISP's would survive under those conditions, and that would definitely lead to anti-competitive and monopolistic behavior.

 

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  Reply # 473967 25-May-2011 14:59
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Also would YouTube or any other media sharing site ever been created if the rest of the world had the same data caps and isp pricing as New Zealand over the last decade.

And if YouTube didn't exist I doubt that a YouTube style site based in New Zealand would be possible right now in 2011.


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  Reply # 473969 25-May-2011 15:01
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AstonAMV:
Ragnor: That kind of vertical integration leads to anti-competitive stuff happening where ISP's have exclusive deals with content providers.

How would the next YouTube or Facebook ever emerge under those conditions?




YouTube and Facebook are free and they make there money from advertising, there would be nothing preventing YouTube and Facebook alternatives from starting up. The exclusivity of content would only extend as far as to how much the home user gets charged for data. It would be impossible for individual ISP's to allow only there users access to content. The only difference would be data to the content would be free or cheaper for the customer with the ISP with a deal than the data to the same content for a user from from a different ISP.

From New Zealand's perspective, if they ever build enough international fiber connections that allows the price of international data to drop, how would current retail ISP's make enough revenue with the small population size of the country which has been used as a basis for justifying the high prices we currently pay?
I can't see how more than two ISP's would survive under those conditions, and that would definitely lead to anti-competitive and monopolistic behavior.

 


It's a good thing that the basic economics of laying 13,000 km of cable means that International pricing can't drop toooo much more than it already is :)  




Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

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  Reply # 473979 25-May-2011 15:30
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Beccara: 

It's a good thing that the basic economics of laying 13,000 km of cable means that International pricing can't drop toooo much more than it already is :)  


If the pacific fibre cable gets installed which they state with 5G technology it could deliver bandwidth of up to 20 Tbit/sec and with technology continuously improving, it is not completely unbelievable that international pricing would drop by a significant amount.

An example of new technology being researched: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-20065615-76.html

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  Reply # 473987 25-May-2011 15:44
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Yes tech does improve as we've seen with the upgrades to SCC but they still cost and cost alot. It doesn't remove the price floor. PF is also a single cable rather than a loop which means either PF has to buy backup space on SCC or ISP's buying capacity on PF have to also buy backup capacity on SCC.




Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

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  Reply # 474008 25-May-2011 16:11
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AstonAMV: 

YouTube and Facebook are free and they make there money from advertising, there would be nothing preventing YouTube and Facebook alternatives from starting up. The exclusivity of content would only extend as far as to how much the home user gets charged for data. It would be impossible for individual ISP's to allow only there users access to content. The only difference would be data to the content would be free or cheaper for the customer with the ISP with a deal than the data to the same content for a user from from a different ISP.



There's nothing stopping an ISP with murky ethics doing things like:

- Deliberately degrading VoIP traffic in order to protect their traditional voice revenues
- Entirely blocking some protocol, and charge extra to get access to it.
- Completely blocking access to a competitors site or product

or something like:

"YouTube is the single biggest site used by our customers” … and it’s affecting our other traffic, so we need to charge extra for full-speed access to youtube"

AstonAMV: 

From New Zealand's perspective, if they ever build enough international fiber connections that allows the price of international data to drop, how would current retail ISP's make enough revenue with the small population size of the country which has been used as a basis for justifying the high prices we currently pay?
I can't see how more than two ISP's would survive under those conditions, and that would definitely lead to anti-competitive and monopolistic behavior.



The same way any business works, sell your product/service at a price that has sufficient margin over the costs.  

Lower international transit directly lowers on of the major costs ISP's have in providing the service.  ISP's will be able to have a better ratio of customers to available international transit.

 

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  Reply # 474015 25-May-2011 16:14
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With PF offering a potential 20 Tbit/sec and SCC having a future upgraded limit of 2.4 Tbit/s using current technology then the owners of the SCC would have to do something to compete or risk becoming a dedicated backup connection for PF.

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  Reply # 474025 25-May-2011 16:26
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Ragnor: 

There's nothing stopping an ISP with murky ethics doing things like:

- Deliberately degrading VoIP traffic in order to protect their traditional voice revenues
- Entirely blocking some protocol, and charge extra to get access to it.
- Completely blocking access to a competitors site or product

or something like:

"YouTube is the single biggest site used by our customers” … and it’s affecting our other traffic, so we need to charge extra for full-speed access to youtube"
 


If that ever happens get John Campbell to do a 30 minute episode on it during election year and I'm sure the next "John Key" will pass a bill through urgency to prevent it. 


Ragnor: 
The same way any business works, sell your product/service at a price that has sufficient margin over the costs.  

Lower international transit directly lowers on of the major costs ISP's have in providing the service.  ISP's will be able to have a better ratio of customers to available international transit.
 


I am not convinced that telecom has done all it can to offer the most efficient pricing including a 'fair' margin for themselves.
 

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  Reply # 474026 25-May-2011 16:28
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AstonAMV: With PF offering a potential 20 Tbit/sec and SCC having a future upgraded limit of 2.4 Tbit/s using current technology then the owners of the SCC would have to do something to compete or risk becoming a dedicated backup connection for PF.


30 seconds of reading found this on their site:

Over the next 15 years we expect to continue to pass on the benefits of continuing technological improvements in undersea transmission technology. The latest capacity upgrade, using improved 10 Gbps (Gigabits per second) transmission, was completed in April 2010 taking total network capacity to 1.2 Tbps (Terabits per second). Current total demand out of Australia and New Zealand is estimated to be around 0.7 Tbps.
 We anticipate the next upgrade will be 18 to 36 months from now depending on demand. The next upgrade can be based on new 40 Gbps technology which has already been successfully tested on our longest undersea segments. This can take total capacity to 9.68 Tbps (or 4.8 Tbps per cable). 
 
Within the next 5 years we expect transmission upgrades will be able to use 100 Gbps, increasing even further the xpected supply from Southern Cross. “


Cheers - N

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  Reply # 474036 25-May-2011 16:46
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Talkiet can you provide a link for that information?

The site scc site states that they have "potential to be expanded to more than 1 Terabit at a later date"

http://www.southerncrosscables.com/public/Network/default.cfm?PageID=138&MenuID=41

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