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Master Geek
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  Reply # 591069 6-Mar-2012 09:47
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Just another thought - the way the telcos talk about data roaming needs to change significantly.

This is on the Vodafone website:

"Going online in Australia now costs only $0.50 per MB - so you can update your Facebook status, check your email, share pictures of your trip and a whole heap more without blowing your budget!

All other destinations will cost $10 per MB"

which is great, but 50c/MB is still $500 for a product that at home costs just over $20. I think I'd still be in danger of "blowing [my] budget" at that price. That's not to say it's not a whole lot better than $30/MB but still...

Telecom doesn't mention great value or anything like that. This is good.

2Degrees says:

Using your mobile across the Tasman could leave you with a bill the size of Tasmania, but not when you?re with 2degrees. "

and yet charges the most of all for most of the rest of the world ($30/MB outside the US, UK and Aus).

Comments like these make it very hard to justify claims that the customer should know. Yes, WE know the charges are huge, but the telcos aren't exactly covering themselves in glory by a: charging like this and b: making it seem like they're doing everyone a favour.

50c per MB is still $500 per GB - "only" four times what you'd pay at home. That needs to be spelled out I think.

P

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 591077 6-Mar-2012 09:59
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I'm having a bit of a problem reconciling the new Paul with the old Paul. I like the new Paul, he's on my side!

(Not that I didn't like the old Paul)




 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 591084 6-Mar-2012 10:14
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Posted in my blog comments from Telecom and links to other tidbits.

Below is the full Telecom reply to my query "Are you able to flick me some information about what’s behind calculating roaming prices?"



For all of our international roaming rates, we negotiate rates with the international carriers we have agreements with. The roaming charges that are passed through to our customers are largely determined by the rates that we are charged by these carriers.

There are also other costs associated with enabling international roaming for our customers. For example, with each international carrier, we need to set up appropriate billing systems. We must also establish a signalling arrangement between Telecom and each international carrier that we have an agreement with.  

To keep our international roaming charging simple for our customers to understand, we have five roaming zones set up, based on the frequency that our customers travel to each roaming destination.

In the very near future, we are launching a number of new roaming products that will enable customers to monitor their data roaming usage while overseas – these include Smartcaps and a new roaming app.

The Smartcaps product will provide updates on mobile data usage by sending customers an SMS at up to five chosen dollar-amount thresholds, or unlimited data value can also be requested. Once the chosen threshold is met, roaming usage is stopped until the customer accepts further usage.

In addition, smartphone customers will soon be able to download a new mobile app called XT Telecom Roaming which allows customers to check roaming rates, country codes, and troubleshoot any roaming queries while not impacting their data usage. This app will be available to download for free from the apps store on customers’ Android or i-Phone devices before departingNew Zealand for their international destination. The app doesn’t require data usage to run, so using it overseas will incur no roaming cost to the customer.  






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Master Geek


  Reply # 591092 6-Mar-2012 10:24
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Its funny, but Vodafone will charge you more if you were a UK customer traveling around Europe than they would charge a NZ customer if they were in Oz.
http://www.vodafone.co.uk/personal/price-plans/managing-my-costs/travelling-abroad/using-the-internet-abroad/index.htm
$2 per MB (or choose your own current exchange rate)
Ultimately don't think the guy should get his bill knocked down, he used the product and should pay for it.

How many people actually know what the billing terms are for their Power, Broadband, Mobile or other services? Or do they just use them and pay for it when they get the bill, then get a shock when that bill is not what they actually expected them to be. They have the option to read the terms and find out the price before they use it but they don't.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 591118 6-Mar-2012 11:00
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I admint the "new Paul" is correct in terms of fee's charged for using a service outside of is's origin. is crazy.... and that is the point. We as users have to take responsibility for our actions and should not plead ignorance, the Judge does not accept that as an excuse. Mis-lead yes as per Paul's points from the variuos web sites stating how good a deal their roaming fees are, when they are not.

So lets look at another example that we take for granted and use overseas; Bank services, gone are the days of Traverls cheques and taking large amounts of forgien Cash in a bum bag, we all use plastic and they charge a fee for their use.

Here is ASB's services description of fees for overseas use. they state their cost structure and the costs charged by Visa which they say they pass them on.

You don't hear about people getting huge transaction fees, (just huge debt from the mrsuse (misuse :) ) they may be anoying..... but they are not unreasonable

Overseas transactionsOverseas ATM fees

Withdrawals made internationally using your ASB ATM or EFTPOS card through the PLUS network or through a Commonwealth Bank of Australia Autobank machine are charged an overseas ATM fee of NZ$5.00. No other transaction fees apply to these withdrawals. There are no exemptions to this fee.

Offshore service margins

In the following section the terms 'ASB margin', 'ASB retail exchange margin', 'conversion rate', 'offshore service margins' and 'Visa international service assessment' are as defined in ASB's ATM cards, EFTPOS cards and FastPhone terms and conditions of use.
All cash withdrawals made at an overseas ATM using your ASB ATM or EFTPOS card will either first be converted into US dollars and then into New Zealand dollars or converted directly from the currency in which the cash withdrawal was made into New Zealand dollars at the applicable conversion rate.

Offshore service margins of 1.1% are added to the converted New Zealand dollar amount of each cash withdrawal made using your ASB ATM or EFTPOS card at an overseas ATM, excluding those withdrawals made using Commonwealth Bank of Australia ATMs.

The offshore service margins comprise a Visa international service assessment of 0.85% imposed on ASB by Visa and passed on to you, and an ASB margin of 0.25%.

The converted amount and the offshore service margins will appear on your statement.

For overseas cash withdrawals made using Commonwealth Bank of Australia ATMs an ASB retail exchange margin of 0.7% is included in the conversion rate by ASB. The total converted amount (including the ASB retail exchange margin where applicable) will appear on your statement.



gzt

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  Reply # 591119 6-Mar-2012 11:02
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It is a good point about email access, but captive portal is only one strategy which needs to happen. An SMS will tell most people what to do to gain access anyway, and customers could choose to switch off portal notification.

Telcos need to provide a higher level of service to their customers in this regard, and drop the we-are-going -to-get-your-money-anyway-so-why-bother routine.

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  Reply # 591123 6-Mar-2012 11:18
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jpollock: I'm having a bit of a problem reconciling the new Paul with the old Paul. I like the new Paul, he's on my side!

(Not that I didn't like the old Paul)


I suspect old Paul would have said mobile operators are not a charity and roaming rates are fine based on the cost to provide the service.

I hope new Paul punches old Paul in the face. 

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 591137 6-Mar-2012 11:44
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gjen:

So lets look at another example that we take for granted and use overseas; Bank services, gone are the days of Traverls cheques and taking large amounts of forgien Cash in a bum bag, we all use plastic and they charge a fee for their use.

Here is ASB's services description of fees for overseas use. they state their cost structure and the costs charged by Visa which they say they pass them on.

You don't hear about people getting huge transaction fees, (just huge debt from the mrsuse (misuse :) ) they may be anoying..... but they are not unreasonable





And yet, they lost a court case over hiding international currency charges and other fees, and had to refund a lot of money.

http://www.converge.org.nz/watchdog/12/04.htm








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  Reply # 591240 6-Mar-2012 13:22
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freitasm: Posted in my blog comments from Telecom and links to other tidbits.

Below is the full Telecom reply to my query "Are you able to flick me some information about what’s behind calculating roaming prices?"



For all of our international roaming rates, we negotiate rates with the international carriers we have agreements with. The roaming charges that are passed through to our customers are largely determined by the rates that we are charged by these carriers.

There are also other costs associated with enabling international roaming for our customers. For example, with each international carrier, we need to set up appropriate billing systems. We must also establish a signalling arrangement between Telecom and each international carrier that we have an agreement with.  

To keep our international roaming charging simple for our customers to understand, we have five roaming zones set up, based on the frequency that our customers travel to each roaming destination.

In the very near future, we are launching a number of new roaming products that will enable customers to monitor their data roaming usage while overseas – these include Smartcaps and a new roaming app.

The Smartcaps product will provide updates on mobile data usage by sending customers an SMS at up to five chosen dollar-amount thresholds, or unlimited data value can also be requested. Once the chosen threshold is met, roaming usage is stopped until the customer accepts further usage.

In addition, smartphone customers will soon be able to download a new mobile app called XT Telecom Roaming which allows customers to check roaming rates, country codes, and troubleshoot any roaming queries while not impacting their data usage. This app will be available to download for free from the apps store on customers’ Android or i-Phone devices before departingNew Zealand for their international destination. The app doesn’t require data usage to run, so using it overseas will incur no roaming cost to the customer.  



 
Very corporate response. Did you expect to receive something useful?

Telcos make their fat juicy profits from business.  That will be the market they're truly targeting for roaming. 

 



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  Reply # 591242 6-Mar-2012 13:23
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Ragnor:
jpollock: I'm having a bit of a problem reconciling the new Paul with the old Paul. I like the new Paul, he's on my side!

(Not that I didn't like the old Paul)


I suspect old Paul would have said mobile operators are not a charity and roaming rates are fine based on the cost to provide the service.

I hope new Paul punches old Paul in the face. 


Having taken marketing at university, there are a ton of pricing strategies.

But, the one that applies here is to set the pricing at which the market will bear.   It is definitely not cost based pricing.  

gzt

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  Reply # 591368 6-Mar-2012 17:49
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freitasm: Posted in my blog comments from Telecom and links to other tidbits.


Links to the MED trans-Tasman roaming survey home page and documents: http://www.med.govt.nz/ttr

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 591384 6-Mar-2012 18:38
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TL;DR.

This entire issue is bolocks and someone needs to step up and tell the users this!

Blaming the telcos is just stupid, pointless and annoying.  

You guys whinge and whinge about high prices, yet you want to hang on to old technology until you die and you want to use your old technology on new systems causing the need to so many different configurations that the amount of testing required to get everything to sort of work most of the time costs so much time that not even a third world monkey paid a peanut a month can do it at a cost you're happy with!!!

People who can afford a $2000 plane ticket need to spend some cash, get a decent phone that will run a decent VoIP client, port their phone number to VoIP then use wifi and a local data sim.

Heavens sakes guys, there are phones with dual sims for a reason, and it's just not hard to change out a sim while you're sitting on the plane and not allowed to even use your phone.

I'm all for taking a bash at the greedy, fat cat, over paid, under worked, lazy telco.  Everyone here knows that!

But when it comes to MTR and Roaming I really have to start asking some questions of the users.

Users aren't doing their bit.  User expectations have got way way out of hand and it's time they pulled head in and started focusing on the solutions that the carriers, providers and manufactures have been putting in place for the last decade.

ComCom Conf

Come on guys, bunch of you watched the comcom bb conf and know that Cisco talked about everything going wifi.

Google. Apple, Nokia have been putting wifi stuff in Androids, iPhones, what ever, for over half a decade. 

Connect the dots and use the new technology.

Why is this so dumb?

Next I'm going to be reading a rant on here about how Air New Zealand failed to carry 30,000 litres of water on a flight so that you could shower using pure fresh New Zealand water at the local hotel and then have a whinge when they serve you $5 bottles of Invercargil water rather than 50c bottles of local water when you're in France.

The technology is in the phone!

The whole point of Wifi is so we can get passed all the stupid stuff in the telecom response I read above.  You just buy an IP connection, wifi or 3G in what ever local flavour and then all your applications at layer 7 do the work.

The applications live on your phone.  You only buy data from the provider....  ...and yes I do get that this is a thread about data.  But if you're thinking I've lost the plot then you've missed the point.

/Rant




Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz


BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 591409 6-Mar-2012 20:19
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In the interest of this thread I've decided to fly to Sydney, to check what SMS Telecom sends to its customers. It is:

"Welcome to Telecom. NZ rates DO NOT apply abroad for info see telecomroaming.co.nz or call free from mobile +6433710866 To top-up call *333"


[Joking, I am here on a trip sponsored by Intel].




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  Reply # 591411 6-Mar-2012 20:22
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freitasm: In the interest of this thread I've decided to fly to Sydney, to check what SMS Telecom sends to its customers. It is:

"Welcome to Telecom. NZ rates DO NOT apply abroad for info see telecomroaming.co.nz or call free from mobile +6433710866 To top-up call *333"


[Joking, I am here on a trip sponsored by Intel].


Of course if he did get this message then there is no excuse. Of course he could argue that he never received the message.

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  Reply # 591429 6-Mar-2012 21:14
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codyc1515: Of course if he did get this message then there is no excuse. Of course he could argue that he never?received?the message.


This can be checked including time and date handset accepted the SMS

John

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