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BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 339565 8-Jun-2010 21:47
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To be fair, Onion nodes are used to forward connections and anonymize it under different layers (the "onion" part of it). Mostly your connection is used to erase the track that leads back to the user with the original request. Exit points are dedicated routers.

I wouldn't be comfortable with that kind of use of my connection anyway. The approach Zero Knowledge had was perfect: they ran their own hardware on partner ISPs, basically forwarding requests from node to node until it was anonymos.

Leave those things to the ISPs. While it can be used for good, the potential for bad is just too big.







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  Reply # 339878 9-Jun-2010 17:54
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freitasm: It's very different "sharing"... The road sharing is the use of that resource at the same time as others, but you still use your own car.

With TOR you allow others to use your network connection, the one you are responsible for, to connect to other resources.

It's like you leave your car keys in the ignition. People can take the car for a ride on the road. They can even use it for a bank heist. You don't know though, until it comes back to bite you.


Doesn't matter. If someone I share my car with robs a bank, that's down to them, provided I had NO IDEA that person was going to rob a bank. Just as a rental car can't be held responsible if a car they own was rented and used to rob a bank.  

If they rush an ill person to the hospital and save a life....I can't claim credit.

It may be my car....but whatever action they take is ALL theirs.

Let's try another one. Let's say I leave bags of horse manure by my gate and put up a sign saying it is free for anyone to take and use. If someone takes it and uses it to start a fire that burns down a house, I am in no way responsible for that. Similarly, they may grow excellent veggies I also have no claim to. 

That someone things the Net is any different is very dangerous thinking that will ultimately undermine and destroy the idea of an open Internet. Fascism lies That-a-Way IMHO. Looka at China. That is a far greater evil ultimately. 

You (not you particularly, but anyone) can go there if you want. I won't go there or vote for people who want to. Politicians monstering me with paedophiles (the most popular bogeyman these days to make people give up their freedoms) won't make me give up my freedom. That sort have been around forever....ask anyone in a Catholic orphanage for the past several hundred years. We didn't ban orphanages. 









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  Reply # 339884 9-Jun-2010 18:11
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freitasm: To be fair, Onion nodes are used to forward connections and anonymize it under different layers (the "onion" part of it). Mostly your connection is used to erase the track that leads back to the user with the original request. Exit points are dedicated routers.

I wouldn't be comfortable with that kind of use of my connection anyway. The approach Zero Knowledge had was perfect: they ran their own hardware on partner ISPs, basically forwarding requests from node to node until it was anonymos.

Leave those things to the ISPs. While it can be used for good, the potential for bad is just too big.


Every day we take the good with the bad. 

Your assessment of risk is different to mine...and that's OK. I don't know your situation and you don't know mine. 

I just have this old linux box here that I'm playing with. Even if they somehow managed to destroy every file on the system it wouldn't matter.....because there is nothing on here that matters anyway....and it's on a subnet different to my other PCs that doesn't route. In effect a DMZ between two routers. If the law deems me responsible for every byte through my connection, then the fixed Internet is over for me and I don't want it.

I'll move to cellular DHCP via unregistered or 2nd-hand SIMs. 

I accept the people who want to watch and record every byte that moves are already well advanced in their aim and they are in the ascendency. We will probably soon be just as controlled as the Chinese are today. Except they aren't.....and that's thanks to VPNs and TOR-like structures. 

My interest is precautionary. 

 




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  Reply # 339916 9-Jun-2010 19:49
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If/when the section 92whatever it is now comes in, I'd be bloody afraid of using a TOR network and having a recording company finger my IP for having downloaded a movie or something....



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  Reply # 340944 12-Jun-2010 14:16
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nate:
freitasm: It's very different "sharing"... The road sharing is the use of that resource at the same time as others, but you still use your own car.

With TOR you allow others to use your network connection, the one you are responsible for, to connect to other resources.

It's like you leave your car keys in the ignition. People can take the car for a ride on the road. They can even use it for a bank heist. You don't know though, until it comes back to bite you.


freitasm has got it in a nutshell.  My viewpoint is that your internet connection is just that - yours.  Should someone use it for something illegal, and your IP address is logged, would you not be liable, since it was done through your connection?


I own a shovel. 

The shovel has a small sign on it. The sign says: "If you need to use this shovel, please do. Just bring it back when you're done. The shovel is free for anyone to use".  

If someone takes that shovel and does something bad with it, I'm not responsible for what THEY do. I generously shared my shovel. Whatever they have done with it, they always bring it back. 

What you are talking about is de facto licensing of all internet connections. We aren't there yet as far as I know.  If I restrict access to my connection it's to save me money, not be a defacto policeman. 

My connection is my shovel. Not a gun. 

My shared internet connection is NOTHING LIKE thee kind of lethal weapon that should be regulated in the way you suggest. 

We didn't restrict church-going despite then being provably, demonstrably, gone-to-jail, full of paedophiles. 

The fear mongering about internet connections is outrageous. The kind of regulation you're talking about is equally outrageous in IMHO. 






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  Reply # 340946 12-Jun-2010 14:24
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Linuxluver:

My connection is my shovel. Not a gun. 



Interesting viewpoint.

I may be confusing the point you're trying to make, but riddle me this: Instead of leaving a shovel out, you left a gun. Someone comes and uses your gun to shoot people you know. Yes, they get charged with the crime, but you probably would as well for being silly enough to leave a loaded gun sitting somewhere and not taking necessary precautions to secure it.

Now this thread is right off topic Tongue out



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  Reply # 340947 12-Jun-2010 14:26
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Guns are lethal weapons. They must be licensed by law. 

Is your internet connection a gun?

No. It's just a channel for communication that does not require any sort of licensing or registration. 

It's a shovel..

If you know of a more appropriate forum, please move this. :-)   




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  Reply # 340953 12-Jun-2010 14:45
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Ahh, I see what you mean now!



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  Reply # 340955 12-Jun-2010 14:46
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The media have scare-mongered about the Internet despite the fact more kids are sexually molested as a consequence of going to church then if they use the internet.

If you take your kids to church and they get molested are you legally responsible for that?

This appears to be what is being suggesting about internet use: It's all potentially dangerous and I'm responsible - culpable! - for all of it whether I know about it or not.

Take that argument and place it in almost any other context and it appears what it is: ridiculous.

Parents who take their kids to Church - places proven to be dangerous (mass murders and sexual abuse) should be aware they will be legally responsible if they are molested by someone while at Sunday School there.

Add and repeat for schools, shopping malls, taxis, buses.....and any other good or service we consume that might be misused by someone else. 

Specifically, I am not legally REQUIRED to lock down my Internet connection (as far as I know). I just do it to save money. 

The person doing evil is the one responsible. Sharing is not the crime here. If you make sharing the crime, you have just banned the Internet and ANY other thing we share. Think about it.




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  Reply # 340998 12-Jun-2010 18:22
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Linuxluver: The person doing evil is the one responsible. Sharing is not the crime here. If you make sharing the crime, you have just banned the Internet and ANY other thing we share. Think about it.


I am not saying sharing is a crime. I'd love to share. I'd love to actually make money from sharing - perhaps running a Tomizone or FON hotspot. The problem is that I have no idea of who is using my shared connection, and if they do something wrong, the investigation will stop on me, and I'd have no way to prove that wasn't me doing something wrong.

So I rather not be in the position of having to explain this to an investigator that may or may not be tech savvy.







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  Reply # 341043 12-Jun-2010 20:22
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freitasm:
Linuxluver: The person doing evil is the one responsible. Sharing is not the crime here. If you make sharing the crime, you have just banned the Internet and ANY other thing we share. Think about it.


I am not saying sharing is a crime. I'd love to share. I'd love to actually make money from sharing - perhaps running a Tomizone or FON hotspot. The problem is that I have no idea of who is using my shared connection, and if they do something wrong, the investigation will stop on me, and I'd have no way to prove that wasn't me doing something wrong. So I rather not be in the position of having to explain this to an investigator that may or may not be tech savvy.


I hear you. That is not a position I want to help create by assuming it already pertains..... 

I think the safest course isn't to assume responsibility for the actions of others where we clearly have no knowledge or (immediate) control.....but to reject it.

That said, I think Tomizone provide logs of usage, so it is possible to work out who logged into your node and when. 

I ran a Tomizone node out of my house for two years until the router died.  




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  Reply # 341050 12-Jun-2010 20:44
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One more thought.

I can see big ISPs wanting to support being defacto enforcers as it would legally allow them more control over traffic while at the same time helping to create a barrier to entry to the industry by people/companies lacking the scale to meet the compliance costs and regs.

Laws and related compliance costs, while it is politically fun to moan about them, are frequently used to block competition.

Creating fear about internet is a great way to - defacto - lobby for laws that would shut smaller players out of the market.....while at the same time giving ISPs more control over user traffic in the name of enforcement.

As in all these situations...it's Joe Private User who ends up wearing all the risk and paying all the costs. THEIR connection is exempt because they have political clout. Yours is YOURS...and you're responsible...in a way that they are not. 

I'm not buying it...just as they do not buy it.  




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  Reply # 341710 14-Jun-2010 22:00
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Going wayyy back to the original topic, i think that there doesnt need to be a seperate section for this. Geekzone already has many many sections already, some of which are slightly neglected in terms of how often people post in them.

Personally i prefer forums with less specific categories, as the result comes across as a more active forum with more replies to topics etc. It seems if you have very specific areas for each topic, overall the forum seems to get less replies. I think GPForums found this when they consolidated the majority of their gaming sections into one large General Gaming section (with only a few specific subforums).

Saying that, geekzone does have a variety of topics and you couldn't really reduce them much at all from what they are now(which is not what im suggesting to do, im just saying adding a section for this isnt necessary)

And getting back on topic, to the off topic discussion, perhaps things like Tomizone would work best if they connected via some kind of VPN to Tomizone's servers? (apologies if it does this already, i havent looked into this service much)
That way you don't need to know whats going through it, as it can basically become Tomizone's responsibility? Pretty much you'd just be providing a gateway through to their network.
Would protect tomizone's users too from the person providing the gateway snooping on their connection.

Though this does take some power away from the user providing the service. Just a random thought.

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  Reply # 342716 17-Jun-2010 16:21
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I've installed TOR on my Linux system and been playing with it. Firefox is the only app I've enable for TOR so far, but it certainly seems to work as claimed. Geekzone thinks I'm posting this from a  PC in Germany. 


Do you use any local proxy to improve the performance? I don't use TOR but my ADSL speed usually seems like I was using it, so I'm using the polipo proxy cache + FoxyProxy to exclude some URL from proxying, but still some rough edges.

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