Vodafone FemtoCell / Sure Signal

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ajobbins

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#750311 24-Jan-2013 16:45

The reasons for Vodafone not allowing you to use another ISP to run a sure signal are almost entirely commercial.

Sure there are some technical 'challenges' that are easier to manage when you have end to end control, but nothing that is a show stopper (as evidenced by the fact other networks overseas allow this).

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ptinson

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#750402 24-Jan-2013 20:21

Yeah I'am aware thats the case, i was really just trying to poke the bear with a stick;)
No really compelling reason not to allow it, just convenient ones.

Of course that is said with no knowledge of how it is implemented in Vodafone, its entirely possible its done in a way that means allowing third parties on board could have security implications etc.

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PhantomNVD

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#750408 24-Jan-2013 20:40

jjnz1: The Vodafone guy from NZNOG said in his speech that QOS was not the barrier to other ISP's carrying traffic from the Suresignal. In fact other countries (VF UK) do allow just that quite successfully.

From his perspective it was purely a marketing decision and not engineering.

Oooo, and I got the tail end of his speech regarding the use of signal boosters over external RBI infrastructure/antennas.
Can someone else who was there elaborate? From memory some kind of booster device was months away from retail release?

Highly interested in this myself, I'd you hear any more yet?

sbiddle

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#750417 24-Jan-2013 21:06

jjnz1: The Vodafone guy from NZNOG said in his speech that QOS was not the barrier to other ISP's carrying traffic from the Suresignal. In fact other countries (VF UK) do allow just that quite successfully.

From his perspective it was purely a marketing decision and not engineering.

Vodafone UK do it because use of the Sure Signal is restricted to selected handsets that you register in the device. Vodafone NZ let any device connect and zero rate the traffic.

NZ is one of the few places where you don't have to maintain a register of allowed devices. The implications of allowing unrestricted use of the Sure Signal on other ISP's where zero rated data doesn't exist are massive, if Vodafone allowed it I'm sure there would be 50+ page threads now abusing Vodafone because customer X on ISP Y has a $300 bill because everybody in the neighbourhood was using their Sure Signal!

PhantomNVD

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#750441 24-Jan-2013 21:54

sbiddle:
jjnz1: The Vodafone guy from NZNOG said in his speech that QOS was not the barrier to other ISP's carrying traffic from the Suresignal. In fact other countries (VF UK) do allow just that quite successfully.

From his perspective it was purely a marketing decision and not engineering.

Vodafone UK do it because use of the Sure Signal is restricted to selected handsets that you register in the device. Vodafone NZ let any device connect and zero rate the traffic.

NZ is one of the few places where you don't have to maintain a register of allowed devices. The implications of allowing unrestricted use of the Sure Signal on other ISP's where zero rated data doesn't exist are massive, if Vodafone allowed it I'm sure there would be 50+ page threads now abusing Vodafone because customer X on ISP Y has a $300 bill because everybody in the neighbourhood was using their Sure Signal!

So let it be a user set option on initial config?

When setting up the device (cd wizard etc.) ASK, do you want to register the devices that can use this connection, or allow anyone to use this device?

With a WARNING, YOU WILL BE LIABLE FOR THE BANDWIDTH blah blah blah, type disclaimed as confirmation message?

Then the user has no leg if they trash their cap?

Better yet, VF can pay the peanuts it cost for their customers to get the advantage of reception where there was none before?

And, to muddy the waters.... Why only allow VF customer cells to connect?

Don't they get paid from 2degrees for the roaming customers?

Surely data on my ADSL is cheaper than on their towers for them anyway?

freitasm

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#750444 24-Jan-2013 21:57

Regardless of "warnings" there will be users who will complain later because "I didn't see any warning" and then taking them to Fair Go to complain and ask for a bill reduction from their ISP...

PhantomNVD

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#750445 24-Jan-2013 21:59

freitasm: Regardless of "warnings" there will be users who will complain later because "I didn't see any warning" and then taking them to Fair Go to complain and ask for a bill reduction from their ISP...

So do it the other way by default?

Lock it to 'set' devices and allow it to be opened in some hidden admin page (like the one in my hg556a VF router) that only geeks like us will google for explicitly?

sbiddle

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#750984 25-Jan-2013 21:25

PhantomNVD:And, to muddy the waters.... Why only allow VF customer cells to connect?

Don't they get paid from 2degrees for the roaming customers?

Surely data on my ADSL is cheaper than on their towers for them anyway?

Femto's have heavy integration direct into the core network. Roaming works very differently.

johnr

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#750993 25-Jan-2013 21:46

sbiddle:
PhantomNVD:And, to muddy the waters.... Why only allow VF customer cells to connect?

Don't they get paid from 2degrees for the roaming customers?

Surely data on my ADSL is cheaper than on their towers for them anyway?

Femto's have heavy integration direct into the core network. Roaming works very differently.

I suggest you do a Google search how the Sure Signal works quite complex

freitasm

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#751027 25-Jan-2013 22:32

PhantomNVD: And, to muddy the waters.... Why only allow VF customer cells to connect?

I don't know where you got this piece of information from. When I tried the Sure Signal during the product launch I was able to connect my Amazon Kindle Keyboard 3G to the femtocell and browse the Amazon store as if it was just a normal cell site.

You have to understand that 2degrees "roaming" is geo limited. If there's a 2degrees cell site in a region then Vodafone will not accept connections from 2degrees customers even if there isn't a 2degrees signal in that exact location.

jjnz1

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#751033 25-Jan-2013 22:59

freitasm:
PhantomNVD: And, to muddy the waters.... Why only allow VF customer cells to connect?

I don't know where you got this piece of information from. When I tried the Sure Signal during the product launch I was able to connect my Amazon Kindle Keyboard 3G to the femtocell and browse the Amazon store as if it was just a normal cell site.

You have to understand that 2degrees "roaming" is geo limited. If there's a 2degrees cell site in a region then Vodafone will not accept connections from 2degrees customers even if there isn't a 2degrees signal in that exact location.

Correct, but as I understand it, that black and white roaming agreement was only for the 'main' initial geo-regions.

For example if you have no 2 degrees signal at Makara wind farm, but lots of Vodafone, tough! But areas like Taupo are a different story. My phone chooses the best one, often the stronger VF -which suits me very well.

(Note: I don't mean Taupo CBD, but more rural).

sbiddle

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#751068 26-Jan-2013 07:24

jjnz1:
freitasm:
PhantomNVD: And, to muddy the waters.... Why only allow VF customer cells to connect?

I don't know where you got this piece of information from. When I tried the Sure Signal during the product launch I was able to connect my Amazon Kindle Keyboard 3G to the femtocell and browse the Amazon store as if it was just a normal cell site.

You have to understand that 2degrees "roaming" is geo limited. If there's a 2degrees cell site in a region then Vodafone will not accept connections from 2degrees customers even if there isn't a 2degrees signal in that exact location.

Correct, but as I understand it, that black and white roaming agreement was only for the 'main' initial geo-regions.

For example if you have no 2 degrees signal at Makara wind farm, but lots of Vodafone, tough! But areas like Taupo are a different story. My phone chooses the best one, often the stronger VF -which suits me very well.

(Note: I don't mean Taupo CBD, but more rural).

The initial roaming agreement covered everywhere outside Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Queenstown, ie everywhere 2degrees didn't have a network. Within side the geographic boundaries of the 2degrees coverage you can't roam on Vodafone. This is something 2degrees need to happen, as roaming steering isn't an effective way of preventing people from using a roaming network, you need to lock this down to prevent it from even being able to happen.

As for outside these regions as 2degrees have deployed their network roaming has been blocked once the expension has been integrated into the network and has gone live. In some areas this hasn't yet happened, but ultimately will as 2degrees need customers on their network, not roaming.

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