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  Reply # 79968 27-Jul-2007 11:37
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ReaperZ: i just thought of something ! during power cuts you cant use a VOIP phone lol


Yep, however, if you are using a cordless phone, that won't work during a power cut either.  A quick poll around the office has just one person with a corded phone in their house, and that was stored away in a closet.

Jason




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  Reply # 79983 27-Jul-2007 13:43
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TinyTim:
There are suggestions that for a major telco, especially one migrating from a legacy TDM network, the costs of a VoIP network/NGN is just as much as a TDM network. Perhaps they're simply warning telcos to be more conservative with their VoIP business plans, I don't know. (On the other hand someone who sets up a small competing service on an existing broadband network - like VFX - then there's no question, VoIP is the only way to go.)


Thanks for the presentation, very interesting.

So, can I rephrase...  VoIP is cheaper.  If you were building a new network, go VoIP.  However, it isn't cheap enough to throw out your existing network and replace it.  Oh, and running it side by side is going to be more expensive than having one network. :)

Tiny Tim:
For a large telco, you need your routers and switches, you need your gateways and gateway controllers (soft switches), your servers, your MSANs or your IADs. The cost of writing off your old network won't help. It all adds up. You've still got the same transmission costs because there's no saving there through VoIP. And even if these are cheaper to buy, operating them is still expensive. There are also pitfalls - what happens if the gear turns out not to be carrier grade? This causes expensive down time.


Bah!  You've got that with every new network.  It's a standard risk analysis for the roll-out of a new network.

How about this?

"Voice is a feature, not a service.  The per-unit cost of charging for a call exceeds the value of the call.  Therefore, don't charge for a individual call."

What does that do to your network if you don't have to charge for a call?  I think that would remove most of the soft-switches in your network.  Gateways?  They're CPE, don't worry about them, same goes with the IADs.  What would that do for reliability?  No more CDRs (other than law enforcement)!  No more prepaid!

Since this is a converged network.  What would your network look like if you didn't have to charge for an SMS?  Would you need more or fewer SMSCs?  Would the software load on your MSCs be cheaper?  The routing easier to understand?

Skype and VoIP are already eating into mobile roaming minutes.  They're eating into general long distance minutes too.  Carriers have the same choice they've always had.  They can either provide the services their customers are asking for, or they can lose the customer.  If they can't offer the service on their existing network, then they'll need to change networks to offer it.

Based on what's being reported from TNZ/TCL (on the business side), I think they've already made their choice.

VoIP is here.




 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 79984 27-Jul-2007 13:46
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Fraktul:
4) The point is that VoIP is pretty hungry on processing power getting it switched and routed through your network while treated appropriately as a VoIP CoS - far more so that best efforts data transmissions which make up the bulk of internet traffic currently. That the traffic it represents is smaller is not really of much consequence since your TDM traffic will rarely be on the same circuits anyhow.


See, my experience is that QoS is no longer needed.  At least not on the edges of the network.  The 64kbps that my call takes is tiny compared to the 10 mbps that the connection is.  I've never noticed any jitter or dropped packets.  Of course, I'm only on a shared data network until it's handed off from TCL to WorldXChange, but it is shared.

Fraktul:
7) I can only speak from personal experience - its a mixed bag really but generally I would still expect VoIP carriers to be of a lower quality currently.


See, I've had the opposite experience.  A couple of years ago?  Yep, voip was bad.  The increase in broadband line speeds seems to have done a lot for VoIP performance.

Fraktul:
9) Sure, but in the mean time you need people with both skill sets and it adds complexity and expense in the short term for providers. Things obviously get better down the track and as you say you will see a lot more people with working knowledge of SIP/H323 out there in the future but the relative ease to understand something does not always equate into understanding all its facets.


For carriers?  Yes.  Duplicating a network will result in additional costs, much like an airline that runs more than one type of plane in their fleet.  However, if they don't change, they will run a risk of ending up with a network that can't compete.  Their customers are demanding VoIP interconnects, which means that they will switch to obtain it.  I did.  Dept. of Corrections did, LINZ did, NZ Trade and Enterprise did (at least in the office they use for presentations). 

The carrier's choice is the same as always.  "Do I want to keep this customer or not".  If they don't care, they won't offer the service.






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  Reply # 80174 29-Jul-2007 09:30
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jpollock:
The carrier's choice is the same as always. "Do I want to keep this customer or not". If they don't care, they won't offer the service.


I agree. Mind you, perhaps TelstraClear think they have solved this problem by only offering Internet without a phone on 10G monthly plans or greater. They keep you as a customer while also receiving more money for the larger plans to partly compensate for the lost phone.

Still hoping that TelstraClear will add a comment on their plans for Voip which I had expected them to do but it looks like I'll/we'll be disappointed.

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  Reply # 80176 29-Jul-2007 09:43
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geek4me: Still hoping that TelstraClear will add a comment on their plans for Voip which I had expected them to do but it looks like I'll/we'll be disappointed.

The VoIP market is already starting to look quite crowded.  We now have:

*  WxC VFX and DVX
*  Slingshot iTalk
*  CallPlus 2 Talk
*  Ecofone
*  GoTalk
*  BroadbandPhone
*  Skype

and probably a few others I can't remember right now, and these are just NZ VoIP providers.  There are many more in Oz and legions of them overseas.

What would be the point of TCL jumping on the bandwagon when they have their work cut out keeping customers happy on existing services that they offer now?

No doubt TCL already use VoIP internally for many circuits and it's equally sure that this migration will continue.  But whether they want to offer a customer-side VoIP interface is another matter.

I think if TCL can start making money with existing services and survive Sol T's ruthless pruning of unprofitable businesses, that will keep them busy enough for the next little while without having to go cap-in-hand to Sol and ask for authorisation of additional capital expenditure.  Judging by the Tauranga Wireless Network fiasco, there is probably almost no chance of such expenditure being approved until they start making money again.

Just my 2c worth anyway.

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  Reply # 80177 29-Jul-2007 09:59
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Grant17:
geek4me: Still hoping that TelstraClear will add a comment on their plans for Voip which I had expected them to do but it looks like I'll/we'll be disappointed.

The VoIP market is already starting to look quite crowded.  We now have:

*  WxC VFX and DVX
*  Slingshot iTalk
*  CallPlus 2 Talk
*  Ecofone
*  GoTalk
*  BroadbandPhone
*  Skype

and probably a few others I can't remember right now, and these are just NZ VoIP providers.  There are many more in Oz and legions of them overseas.

What would be the point of TCL jumping on the bandwagon when they have their work cut out keeping customers happy on existing services that they offer now?



In the medium to long term VoIP is the future of telephony. It's not simply an alternative to the existing POTS system but a total replacement of everything but the last mile if you look at Telecom's NGN rollout. Not far down the track if you want to be a telco in NZ you're going to need to offer a VoIP service, whether that be for non coded toll calls from Telecom's NGN or offering a full home phone service. If you don't upgrade you won't be in business, it's as simple as that. I believe we'll see a VoIP service from TCL in the not too distant future but obviously those people on here who could tell us all about it can't.

It's a big unknown how many people would switch to a combined Naked ADSL + VoIP solution if it was marketed at a good price point. Those of us who understand VoIP know about the technology but selling it to the general public could prove to be very difficult. The whole telco business in NZ is going to change far more in the next 10 years than it has in the past 17 since Clear entered the market and many people seem to underestimate that. Just my 2c worth anyway.

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  Reply # 80189 29-Jul-2007 11:24
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jpollock:
ReaperZ: i just thought of something ! during power cuts you cant use a VOIP phone lol


Yep, however, if you are using a cordless phone, that won't work during a power cut either. A quick poll around the office has just one person with a corded phone in their house, and that was stored away in a closet.

Jason


I have two corded phones just for that reason.

Cordless - Kitchen
Corded - Bedroom
Corded - Computer Room/Studio

Cheers,
ZollyMonsta





Check out my LPFM Radio Station at www.thecheese.co.nz cool


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  Reply # 80198 29-Jul-2007 12:19
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Grant17:
What would be the point of TCL jumping on the bandwagon when they have their work cut out keeping customers happy on existing services that they offer now?


As you say, it's getting pretty crowded out there with a lot of small firms.  No big ones offering residential services yet.

If you look into the future and you see your product being made obsolete by another technology, what do you do?  Do you argue about it, screaming and hollering all the way into irrelevance?  Or do you cannibalize your own business before someone else does?

I've seen many firms attempt to protect lines of business instead of re-inventing themselves.  They invariably lose out to external competitors.

Nortel's PBX business comes to mind.  They can't even sell Option 11's to their own subsidiaries now.

How long do TNZ/TCL/Vodafone have before they have another 2+ large competitors?  Probably 6-12 months after naked DSL.  The margins on a switch to VoIP would appear (from the outside) to be just too juicy compared to re-selling TNZ POTS.

Once you have multiple competitors offering the next product, it gets even harder to keep your customers.  You can't compete on price or features, you have to compete on service.  Does anyone here honestly think that TNZ/TCL/Vodafone can compete with the smaller carriers based on customer experience with their help lines?

Personally, I'm expecting something really, really interesting from Vodafone.  FemtoCell/Homezone that sort of thing.




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  Reply # 80204 29-Jul-2007 12:29
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jpollock:
Personally, I'm expecting something really, really interesting from Vodafone.  FemtoCell/Homezone that sort of thing.


What if it's not Vodafone delivering such a solution? There could be another party out there very interested in such a solution particularly with naked ADSL.


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  Reply # 80205 29-Jul-2007 12:34
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jpollock: Personally, I'm expecting something really, really interesting from Vodafone.  FemtoCell/Homezone that sort of thing.

Well, I sure hope so...

There's been a deathly silence ever since BestMate was released for Prepay late last year.  OA customers are continuing to be shafted on contracts and there's no let-up in sight...

If/when Voda eventually do come out with something interesting, it may well be too little / too late for many of us.

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  Reply # 80217 29-Jul-2007 13:57
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sbiddle:
jpollock:
Personally, I'm expecting something really, really interesting from Vodafone. FemtoCell/Homezone that sort of thing.


What if it's not Vodafone delivering such a solution? There could be another party out there very interested in such a solution particularly with naked ADSL.


I'm thinking that the next buzz after a pure-VoIP play is a combined mobile/home phone play.  And not one that is purely a pricing model. :)

I can imagine a future where base stations become CPE, allowing businesses and individuals to pull their calls off of the main mobile network and onto the fixed network sooner.

That sort of service can really only be provided by carriers with an existing mobile network.  Personally, I don't see TNZ as the type to do something that would result in revenue loss to their POTS team, but I could be wrong.  It could be the GSM carrier that's always rumoured to be starting a network?  TCL's turned theirs off, so I've discounted them.  Basically, Voda's got the most to gain from the service, since they don't have any residential fixed customers.

There could be something interesting with SIP/WiFi based handsets, but the vendors don't seem very interested in that market.  We may have to wait for full-IMS networks for that to start to appear.




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