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348 posts

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  # 1275672 1-Apr-2015 20:05
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sbiddle:
markl:
Hmmm, so you'd rather go into debt on a credit card than use your own actual money using a debit card?

Each to their own I suppose, but most people are better off avoiding debt...


Yes. I pay my credit card off each month so have ~50 days interest free.

Last year I spent 40+ nights in hotels and probably had about  a dozen rental car hires. Many hotels and cart companies won't accept debit cards, and even if they do you're immediately stung with anywhere from $100 - $2000 of YOUR money that you can no longer spend because it's held as security for anything up to a week until the hold clears. If your debit card is compromised it's your money that's taken. Yes the bank will reverse the charges if you're deemed not to be liable, but in the mean time it's your money that's gone.

There are very good reasons for a debit card - if you're somebody who has financial issues and can't control their spending so doesn't want the temptation of a credit card, they're the perfect solution. For most other people I see them as an incredibly bad idea.




Paranoid much? Lol

You seen to be disregarding the fact that you cab control how much money you our into the account that is backing a debit card. The risk is totally up to you to control.

Ok, I'll concede the issue with hotels, hire car companies will be similar I suppose, but I think you're being dramatic when you set that a debit card is "an incredibly bad idea".

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  # 1275678 1-Apr-2015 20:12
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markl:

Paranoid much? Lol

You seen to be disregarding the fact that you cab control how much money you our into the account that is backing a debit card. The risk is totally up to you to control.

Ok, I'll concede the issue with hotels, hire car companies will be similar I suppose, but I think you're being dramatic when you set that a debit card is "an incredibly bad idea".


I'm not paranoid. I'm merely pointing out Semble is a credit card, and is not a debit card replacement.

Banks wants people to have debit cards because it gives people greater convenience. There are plenty of downsides to that, including for people who are attempting to control spend by not having credit cards, but find the ease of use of the card means there spending habits don't actually change because it's still easy for them to buy products and services online.




 
 
 
 


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  # 1275695 1-Apr-2015 20:33
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sbiddle:
markl:

Paranoid much? Lol

You seen to be disregarding the fact that you cab control how much money you our into the account that is backing a debit card. The risk is totally up to you to control.

Ok, I'll concede the issue with hotels, hire car companies will be similar I suppose, but I think you're being dramatic when you set that a debit card is "an incredibly bad idea".


I'm not paranoid. I'm merely pointing out Semble is a credit card, and is not a debit card replacement.

Banks wants people to have debit cards because it gives people greater convenience. There are plenty of downsides to that, including for people who are attempting to control spend by not having credit cards, but find the ease of use of the card means there spending habits don't actually change because it's still easy for them to buy products and services online.


Of course they want people to have them, as you say, there's a degreee of convenience married with a perception that they're better because it's "your money" that you're spending rather than the bank's. I'm under no illusion that there traps for the unwary - but for me, given that I rarely stay at hotels or hire cars, the debit card works well, and in fact gives me more control and flexibility than a credit card (which I do also have, btw). 

It's worth getting back on topic here though - I don't dispute that Semble is a "replacement" for a credit card (it's actually not replacing it per se, since you need to have a credit card "account" in the first place, and unless I've missed something, there is no option to NOT receive an actual CARD from your bank). What I'm trying to point out is that Semble isn't a long term business, unless they quickly improve what they're offering. What most people want, I believe, is something more akin to a debit card, combined with stored value "public transport" card functionality etc. They may well get there but because it's not there YET they need to have as broad a market as they can from day one, and they don't actually HAVE that since they have only managed to sign up two banks. 

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  # 1275712 1-Apr-2015 20:55
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I have the same control with a credit card than a debit card. Debit card could clean me out if it gets compromised. Credit card no worries, its the banks money they can worry about getting their money back.

Spend or not spend. Its my choice. That is control.

Both have far too little control as in I have to give the same set of 16 numbers, a date and 3 digit code to any website to use it, unlike paypal where each transaction or recurring billing is completely at my control by logging in and cancelling the subscription etc.

Semble is just another way to access my money for the debit card, and the banks money for the credit card. I have it turned on automatically to the credit card because that is better if it was to ever charge something without me expecting it. At least the access to semble seems to be protected by my phone lock which is better than a piece of plastic that has everything needed to bill me printed on it.





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  # 1275736 1-Apr-2015 21:34
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I have some more data points.

I activated a credit card on a Vodafone Semble SIM in an S3, then switched the card to always on.

I shutdown the phone, removed the SIM and installed in a Nokia Lumia 820, after power on confirmed the NFC settings were NFC Tap to pay On, Active cards work at any time.

Using an external NFC reader I was able to read the PPSE, select the payment app and read the Track 2 Equivalent data, basically the PAN and expiry date.

I then shutdown the phone, removed the SIM and installed in a BlackBerry Z10, after power on confirmed NFC settings as allow NFC card transactions when locked and when off

Again with the NFC reader, I was able to read the PPSE, PAN and expiry date.

The executive summary is the Semble SIM appeared to work using SWP in both Lumia 820 and BlackBerry Z10, and gives confidence for working in those families of devices.

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  # 1275744 1-Apr-2015 21:45
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So if you try buying something with the blackberry or nokia, what happens?




Richard rich.ms

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  # 1275762 1-Apr-2015 21:52
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richms: So if you try buying something with the blackberry or nokia, what happens?


We'll find out in the next few days, looks promising at the moment!


 
 
 
 


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  # 1275764 1-Apr-2015 22:00
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roobarb:
richms: So if you try buying something with the blackberry or nokia, what happens?


We'll find out in the next few days, looks promising at the moment!



If it does work it'll be interesting to see if it continues to work. I'm not sure of the current status of DDA but my understanding was all NZ banks were using it for Paypass and Paywave. If it's not able to update this then it's going to fail after 2 transactions.



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  # 1275765 1-Apr-2015 22:00
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I wonder if I can move my set up vodafone sim to my thinks it rooted but its not note 3 and have it work now all the setup hassle is done.




Richard rich.ms

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  # 1275771 1-Apr-2015 22:09
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sbiddle: If it does work it'll be interesting to see if it continues to work. I'm not sure of the current status of DDA but my understanding was all NZ banks were using it for Paypass and Paywave. If it's not able to update this then it's going to fail after 2 transactions.


Very good question. When a contactless payment occurs the card will generate a cryptographic token to cover the transaction, this should occur through APDU exchange with the POS terminal. If the transaction is under $80 then no PIN is required, if a PIN is required it is entered on the POS device, not on your handset.

My understanding is the Semble app takes no part in transactions, however it can monitor the transaction log when powered on. I did not notice any comment in the FAQ regarding number of transactions that can occur while the handset is turned off.

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  # 1275774 1-Apr-2015 22:18
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I got a couldnt read card when I tried my note 4 without it being unlocked. Not tried it with the phone off, because really, who turns their phone off?




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  # 1276103 2-Apr-2015 14:05
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Hey guys,

 Device certification is chiefly based on Semble actually having the devices to test - if we/the other telcos don't sell a given device or variant of said device, we can't supply the test units so it won't be whitelisted. Theoretically each device certified by each telco should filter through to all three whitelists, although as mentioned elsewhere, this is on a best-effort basis.

It has been fascinating to see how much variation there is in NFC hardware and stack implementation. We're working with both Semble and the handset vendors to get every recent, capable device certified wherever possible, and we do use network statistics for prioritisation. Price point of the device is not a consideration, the intention is to open the service up to as many folks as we can as quickly as resource allows.

If there are any particular Android devices that have been sold by Vodafone, support NFC, and are not currently whitelisted, let me know and I can check the status of them when I have a moment.

I've been testing Semble on my Note 4 since late last year & love it. All about convergence.

roobarb:
The executive summary is the Semble SIM appeared to work using SWP in both Lumia 820 and BlackBerry Z10, and gives confidence for working in those families of devices.


Neat!

markl:
Absolutely, I completely agree with you, it's a good idea from Vodafone, and their "Smart" phone series provides unparalleled bang for buck. But it doesn't change the fact that at it's heart its just another tool to attract and  "lock" customers to Vodafone. And that's all I was pointing out - because of that, they can afford to include that device in the list of handsets that are supported for use with Semble, in amongst the other, expensive ones.


The Smart 4 turbo is supported because I gave Semble test units and they passed certification, and having Cat4 4G, HD Voice, and Semble on a $129 handset is a good story to tell. Nothing insidious there. :)

SIM locking in the NZ market is 100% about the price point.

Cheers,

 - Nik




Product Manager @ PB Tech

https://pbtech.co.nz/smartphones


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  # 1276110 2-Apr-2015 14:16
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NikT: If there are any particular Android devices that have been sold by Vodafone, support NFC, and are not currently whitelisted, let me know and I can check the status of them when I have a moment.
 

So, if I have a parallel imported device, it will never be on your supported list? Even if it's, say, a 1+ One, with kick arse specs and NFC support, that comes with an NFC payment solution already built in? Would you, in that case, refuse to let me use the service, even at my own "risk"? Or would I still be able to buy a Semble SIM, download the app and use the service?


NikT: SIM locking in the NZ market is 100% about the price point. 


Okay, fair enough. But why is it that you are able to offer it at a lower price point simply because it's locked? Answer: because you're locking that customer to your network and that way you're guaranteeing revenue from them, yes? So it IS really about gaining and retaining customers, and I'd suggest that it's as much "use of the stick" as it is "offering a carrot" because of that. Insidious - no. but devious? Perhaps you could argue that...

Regardless, that's by the by....I get it, and I'm not complaining, just being a bit anal about it :D



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  # 1276116 2-Apr-2015 14:26
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@NikT

If there are any particular Android devices that have been sold by Vodafone, support NFC, and are not currently whitelisted, let me know and I can check the status of them when I have a moment.


Sony Xperia Z1 Compact    (D5503)  Android version 4.4.4  ?????

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  # 1276169 2-Apr-2015 15:07

markl:

So, if I have a parallel imported device, it will never be on your supported list? Even if it's, say, a 1+ One, with kick arse specs and NFC support, that comes with an NFC payment solution already built in? Would you, in that case, refuse to let me use the service, even at my own "risk"? Or would I still be able to buy a Semble SIM, download the app and use the service?


Semble won't whitelist a device unless it's certified. Devices can't be certified if we don't have any to give them. If the OnePlus One were to be certified, Semble would need two test units. Give me two OnePlus Ones and I'll ask the question. ;)

Bear in mind that we do look at device activation statistics on the network, but that we can't go out and purchase multiple units of devices we didn't sell at full retail pricing for projects like this one - it would be very nice to have for the enthusiast bracket (Which I fall into myself) but wouldn't make any commercial sense, and would be a bottomless pit of 'Why not [random device x]?' Priority will always be devices that each telco sells for what I hope are understandable reasons.

markl:

Okay, fair enough. But why is it that you are able to offer it at a lower price point simply because it's locked? Answer: because you're locking that customer to your network and that way you're guaranteeing revenue from them, yes? So it IS really about gaining and retaining customers, and I'd suggest that it's as much "use of the stick" as it is "offering a carrot" because of that. Insidious - no. but devious? Perhaps you could argue that...

Regardless, that's by the by....I get it, and I'm not complaining, just being a bit anal about it :D


Answer: Volume commitments.

I would like to elaborate on this further, but it's understandably sensitive. I work in the team that manages the SIM locking, & it really is all about getting a higher-spec device to a lower cost where & when the relatively small $30 market precedent to unlock a device can make a tangible difference to an upfront RRP. While on paper it may seem to be about ROI over time, in practice that is not the case at all - it's all about the price tag. :)

ubernoob:

Sony Xperia Z1 Compact    (D5503)  Android version 4.4.4  ?????


Apologies for any confusion, I should have specified 'Sold by Vodafone NZ'. The Z1 Compact was not launched in the NZ market by any telco, unfortunately.

Cheers,

 - Nik




Product Manager @ PB Tech

https://pbtech.co.nz/smartphones


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