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Detruire
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  #120839 3-Apr-2008 20:04
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Filterer: It was just an illistrative example, equally I could have said if no one used air for living there would be far more to go around

"If we arrested all the potential terrorists to free up the city air for the other citizens" is a better comparison.

cokemaster:
Sure, if you are paying for a flat rate, or for upto xx mbps with a fair usage policy.... but if I am paying $1 per GB, why should my traffic be less of a priority to bobs web traffic. We are both paying for it, I don't want to be a second class citizen.

Would you honestly be happy to wait 5 minutes for a 3 minute video to buffer just so someone can download the latest cam of a movie?

P2P will still work fine if it's a bit slower. Streaming music, video and gaming traffic won't.




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hpj2007
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#120842 3-Apr-2008 20:12
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How about some linux mirrors apart from Fedora.

 
 
 
 


bender
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  #120843 3-Apr-2008 20:12
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I'm also against any traffic prioritisation or shaping under a user pays per GB model.  If anything, it should be sold under varying rates of contention, such as $1/GB for say, 50:1 contention i.e. you all get the same treatment of traffic under the $1/GB, but when it's slow it's slow for everyone.  What would be nice is a "premium" contention of say 20:1 but at say $2 or $3/GB which means users experience a higher grade of service, yet again they still pay their fair share.

I'd quite happily pay $2/GB if it meant I wasn't sitting here right now writing a reply to a thread while I'm waiting for a video on YouTube to finish downloading so I don't watch it buffering.

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  #120846 3-Apr-2008 20:15
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Detruire:
Filterer: It was just an illistrative example, equally I could have said if no one used air for living there would be far more to go around

"If we arrested all the potential terrorists to free up the city air for 'proper' citizens" is a better comparison.


But here you go.... How do you know someone is a terrorist. As the Americans have found out, the 'terrorists' are really good at attacking and then retreating into the crowds. Sure you can nuke the ciy but then thats genecide....


Would you honestly be happy to wait 5 minutes for a 3 minute video to buffer just so someone can download the latest cam of a movie?

P2P will still work fine if it's a bit slower. Streaming music, video and gaming traffic won't.


On the flipside... why should I be happy to wait 3 hours because someone wants to watch Youtube while I'm downloading (and paying for) my linux torrent download.




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hpj2007
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  #120849 3-Apr-2008 20:20
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It is strange how networks here are struggling already when some other contries get their TV over IP,  I wonder what happens when that stuff comes here.   Yeah it would be national, but even national is not cheap here, charged at same price.

Detruire
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  #120851 3-Apr-2008 20:22
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cokemaster: But here you go.... How do you know someone is a terrorist. As the Americans have found out, the 'terrorists' are really good at attacking and then retreating into the crowds. Sure you can nuke the ciy but then thats genecide....

That's why it's a good comparison. There are some legal uses for P2P, but the majority aren't.


Would you honestly be happy to wait 5 minutes for a 3 minute video to buffer just so someone can download the latest cam of a movie?

P2P will still work fine if it's a bit slower. Streaming music, video and gaming traffic won't.


cokemaster: On the flipside... why should I be happy to wait 3 hours because someone wants to watch Youtube while I'm downloading (and paying for) my linux torrent download.

I never said you should. However, a youtube video would take a few seconds to load before you'd be downloading faster.
A Linux ISO, or other large torrent, takes 30-180 minutes to complete.

Thus, adding two minutes to a video load time (200% increase in download time) had a far large affect upon the user than a two minute increase in download time for a torrent which is going to take over 30 minutes anyway.




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  #120858 3-Apr-2008 20:35
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But where do you draw the line... I mean, You tube must use a lot of traffic, so lets reduce those priorities....

Basically, if you are paying for traffic... why should someone be the judge on what goes first, second etc. Perhaps they'd be better off to be invest in additional bandwidth?




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Detruire
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  #120862 3-Apr-2008 20:41
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They should, but they won't.




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  #120867 3-Apr-2008 20:46
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Then one could switch to a provider that wouldn't. :)

There are plenty of choices here in NZ.




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  #121113 4-Apr-2008 16:09
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cokemaster: But where do you draw the line... I mean, You tube must use a lot of traffic, so lets reduce those priorities....

Basically, if you are paying for traffic... why should someone be the judge on what goes first, second etc. Perhaps they'd be better off to be invest in additional bandwidth?

Yes, where do you draw the line indeed? But unfortunately the argument of "if you pay for the traffic, you can use it as you will", doesn't quite hold true. The problem here is we pay for the amount of data we use, but the ISP actually pays based on how big the pipe is.

Think of it as a motorway. We can use it as much as we like, but it is only x lanes wide. Sure we can make the m'way bigger, but then we will all pay $5 per litre of petrol to insure we can all use the 20 lane motorway at 120k during peak time.

The options would be:
1. we all pay $5 per litre of petrol
2. as many people as possible avoid using the motorway during peak times
3. we have alternative toll roads
4. we say no 1 person vehicles on the motorway at peak time

Likewise for broadband
1. we all pay more for our data
2. we limit heavy use during peak time
3. we have premium plans with lower contention ratios
4. we shape the traffic

Anyway, that's my 2c (or should I say my 5 bucks)




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  #121121 4-Apr-2008 16:33
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The thing with your motorway example is that when it gets busy... everyone slows down. You don't have trucks going 100km/h while private cars going 10km/h.


Perhaps a peak/off peak scheme works better?

Traffic shaping starts to lean more towards Go large which was railed by many people favoring worldxchange...




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coffeebaron
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  #121124 4-Apr-2008 16:45
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cokemaster: The thing with your motorway example is that when it gets busy... everyone slows down. You don't have trucks going 100km/h while private cars going 10km/h.


Perhaps a peak/off peak scheme works better?

Traffic shaping starts to lean more towards Go large which was railed by many people favoring worldxchange...

Exactly, so it's all about have various options for people to choose from.

Some may like a traffic shaped plan, others may like a cheap off peak rate, then others may like a premium service. So my point is not really about put some restrictions in place, but more about opening up some smarter options that people can choose from.




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their xDSL broadband network faster and even more now as they are upgrading their rural Conklins. If your still stuck on ADSL or VDSL, why not spend $195 on a master filter install to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, data cabling and general computer support for home and small business.

 

Cel-Fi supply and installer - boost your mobile phone coverage legally
Rural Broadband RBI installer for Ultimate Broadband and Full Flavour

 

Need help in Auckland, Waikato or BoP? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com


cokemaster
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  #121126 4-Apr-2008 16:51
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If they have discounted plans for this.... then sure. But this should be an opt in thing for shaping.

An example of traffic shaping abuse by the local telco is in Canada where the dominate telco is traffic shaping all connections, wholesale and retail. The wholesale partners found out the hard way.

Another example of 'traffic shaping' is comcast forging packets to disrupt torrents. Then stacking the crowds in FCC hearings with Comcast employees and paying people to attend to take up room.

Lets hope that none of those 'traffic shaping' policies make their way here. As a sidenote: for youtube videos - I can sit here on my DSL2+ connection and stream pretty much anytime with no need for buffering... it just works.




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coffeebaron
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  #121132 4-Apr-2008 16:58
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cokemaster: If they have discounted plans for this.... then sure. But this should be an opt in thing for shaping.

Yes, totally agree, this would be an "opt in" option only.

I think there was a post a while ago by WxC hinting that there may be some new plans further down the track with perhaps an off peak lower cost data rate, or something like that. So I guess we'll just need to wait and see.




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their xDSL broadband network faster and even more now as they are upgrading their rural Conklins. If your still stuck on ADSL or VDSL, why not spend $195 on a master filter install to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, data cabling and general computer support for home and small business.

 

Cel-Fi supply and installer - boost your mobile phone coverage legally
Rural Broadband RBI installer for Ultimate Broadband and Full Flavour

 

Need help in Auckland, Waikato or BoP? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com


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