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Topic # 24455 24-Jul-2008 14:58

Hi all, I won't put the whole release up here unless someone wants to see it but I am interested in your views on VDSL2...

We're trialling it right now, launching later in the year.

The service is up to 50Mbit/s down and 20Mbit/s up BUT (and it's a big BUT) you have to be within 1km of the exchange to get it.

1: Is that distance to the exchange going to be a limiting factor for you as a customer?

The second point is the price - this is a premium product targetted at businesses but I think there's room in the high-end consumer market for a VDSL2 product.

2: How much would the market bear in terms of price for speed? Is more speed worth paying more for?

Finally, data caps. Given the speeds (particularly the upload) just how much of a cap is enough for VDSL2 services?

3: How much data do you need with a 50/20 service?

Bonus question: I hear a lot of talk about how the only solution to NZ's broadband problems is fibre. Given these speeds what would you use the service for (and what couldn't you do with this that you would be doing with fibre to the home)?

Cheers

Paul




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Reply # 150971 24-Jul-2008 15:09
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Well done on the trials - I hear the "purple" team is starting one today as well. Those are interesting questions.

First what defines a "premium customer"? Someone like me that works from home has four machines on a network, with a virtual server running three virtual machines always on 24/7, running my own email server, and downloading 20 GB a week of backups from my SQL server - or someone who downloads - and uploads - 100 GB a month of torrents?

You see there's a difference there in terms of "value"... Both users would benefit of those speeds, but one would probably be frowned upon.

Then it comes to what can you do really. At 10 Mbps I am happy with my service. But 50 Mbps would allow for other stuff. Think full video on demand. Oh scratch that, there's isn't any company offering this in New Zealand. Or DVD rental downloads. Oh, there isn't this here either.

Web surfing and email downloading at those speeds would just be overkill... But we don't have the content to use this in New Zealand. Also bcause of this 1Km limit it means there's a limited number of people that can actually use this, meaning the number of people who could actually be buying those on demand services.

Tricky... I think this is a business offering really. Or for people with really high budgets that have no problems paying for this.





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  Reply # 150973 24-Jul-2008 15:13
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Paul,

That is great news, but personally I cannot get it, too far from the exchange, and even though I am a RedNetwork customer, I cam only get 4Mbps down.... so not even ADSL2+ can help me :-(

Otherwise, here are my thoughts:

1) Yes, as above, real bummer!

2) That really depends on how much data comes with the package.  $90 gets you ADSL2+ and 20GB, I would expect less < $200 for VDSL2 per month with a realistic cap, say 100GB.  And yes, more speed is worth paying for.

3) At LEAST 100GB cap, and no stupid speed throttling, otherwise what's the point?  There should be data blocks you can buy, like another 50 or 100GB (not small amount like 10GB, that would go in a day).  The BEST thing Vodafone could do, considering they have their own network, is NOT count local traffic towards the cap.

My primary use of something like this, downloading (legal) content, such as iTunes, video on demand (which I am watching more and more off) but at decent quality, none of this 320x240 compressed video.  50MB down should be enough for streaming HDTV (ignoring contention issues)..... so why not also bring back iHug TV but over xDSL instead of transmitting off the Sky tower like before.

Another big use is remote working, I support a large database and transfer a lot of files back and forth between production servers and my workstation, VDSL2 would allow me to do this faster and easier, and free local traffic would mean working doesn't eat my monthly cap like it does at the moment.

What Fibre could do that VDSL cannot?  A single point for tripple play - TV, Phone, Internet, I used to have FirstMedia and thena cable modem in Sydney, and there is still nothing as fast.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 150974 24-Jul-2008 15:13
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Oh, and as Mauricio points out, online backups.



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  Reply # 150976 24-Jul-2008 15:15

I guess that's going to be the big issue - what CAN you do with 50+ that you can't do (legally) with existing services...

I know as a premium consumer myself I'd be after online games/movie downloads/not even thinking about not clicking on that link, but do I need 50+ for that or would I get by with less?

For the knowledge-economy SOHO this kind of upload speed is probably essential, but then you have to be within 1km of the exchange... so does that preclude offering the service to a lot of software developers/content providers/lawyers/banks etc...

curious.




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  Reply # 150989 24-Jul-2008 15:36
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As a heavy user, I would probably enjoy the service, but I think the "premium" might be a little bit over the top. I currently pay $150 at home for ADSL2 with extra data blocks just for normal browsing/gaming/file transfers, so I cannot see any way of paying more than that for more speed.

As an IT manager, though, I would be all over it if (and that's a big IF) there is no throttling and the data caps are reasonable (or better yet, non existent). We have 2 webservers, an FTP server, a VPN server and a SIP server and they chew through data caps really easily on some months.

in short, I'd pay for the speed if it came with good (> 100Gb) data allowances.

Any idea on pricing yet?

Edit: This would SO come in handy with the iTunes Store on the AppleTV!




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  Reply # 151022 24-Jul-2008 16:54
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1. At 5.5 km from exchange = bummer!!
2. I'd pay a 30% premium for the service, and pay by the GB for data
3. As above = user pays. Lose the caps, just pay for what you use at a reasonable price, with a range of local content at zero cost.
4. Video conferencing, IPTV, etc etc




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  Reply # 151026 24-Jul-2008 17:01
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Mmm... VDSL2...

I'll answer the questions from my view:

1: Is that distance to the exchange going to be a limiting factor for you as a customer?

Unfortunately, yes for me, as I live 2km from the exchange (by all my calculations)... and I realise that VDSL2 will probably be the same as ADSL2+ from here (around 15mbps). I've still got an ihug supplied D-Link Gen I DSL-504T, which hopefully will get replaced soon, so I can utilise the Red Network when I get migrated.

2: How much would the market bear in terms of price for speed? Is more speed worth paying more for?

3: How much data do you need with a 50/20 service?

I think something like a minimum of 50GB should be offered (as the customer base will be within 1km with astonishingly fast speeds) at prices from say $140-ish. Not sure if this is what the market here would offer (as no one has released any info on this) and other countries have unlimited data which also isn't comparable here.

I have already used 20GB alone just by watching catch up shows of Breakfast on TVNZ ondemand and having 128k live streams of ONE News. It's probably the most basic thing that people would do soon with high speed internet access, and so a minimum of 50GB is probably realistic actually (with everything else, like video conferencing which businesses love, HD Video, the increasing size of web pages and downloads, etc...)

And the price of $140-ish for 50GB is what I would expect.
Ultimate pack Red = $50 (this is the broadband component) for 20GB @ 24mbps/1mbps, so 50GB at that rate would probably cost $100. Also, most customers will not be next door to an exchange, so the true reality of 50mbps would more likely be 30-35mbps, so $40 more for double the speeds Red network customers are getting seems reasonable (I'm not sure what you guys think...)

Bonus question: I hear a lot of talk about how the only solution to NZ's broadband problems is fibre. Given these speeds what would you use the service for (and what couldn't you do with this that you would be doing with fibre to the home)?

I don't know actually. I'm not a gamer, movie addict, or one who sucks off the Internet 24/7 with high definition video. Fibre would definitely bring more consistency to the broadband offered in New Zealand, and also let us catch up economically compared to other countries.

For me, it would bring new opportunities to actually download what ever I see and like online, online TV, good video conferencing (and stuffing my hard drive up with garbage in an instant), but life will probably stay where it is, with the staples: music, streaming video, chat, mail and Geekzone (unless there is a new Internet age... social networking is still not for me)




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  Reply # 151053 24-Jul-2008 18:07
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To maximised this service, wouldn't it be better to negociate with chorus to put the gear into the new cabnets as they roll out? at least then reach can be maximised. Having it just in exchanges certainly limits the number of people who can use it. Application wise, High Def IPTV?

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  Reply # 151054 24-Jul-2008 18:07
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freitasm:

Then it comes to what can you do really. At 10 Mbps I am happy with my service. But 50 Mbps would allow for other stuff. Think full video on demand. Oh scratch that, there's isn't any company offering this in New Zealand. Or DVD rental downloads. Oh, there isn't this here either.



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  Reply # 151055 24-Jul-2008 18:09
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Mmmm....Imagine if question 2 & 3 had been asked about the iphone a couple of months before the launch. Would it have had any impact on the data plans available?

Anyway, good idea to test the water for a new product although as you pointed out Phil having to be within 1km of the exchange seriously limits the customer base. I have vf broadband but live about 4km from the exchange so have to be satisfied with my 3.2mb down Frown


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  Reply # 151127 24-Jul-2008 22:58
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DjShadow: To maximised this service, wouldn't it be better to negociate with chorus to put the gear into the new cabnets as they roll out? at least then reach can be maximised. Having it just in exchanges certainly limits the number of people who can use it. Application wise, High Def IPTV?

Except the backhaul would then be an issue.  With Red network and the planned vDSL service the backhaul is on Vector etc and bandwidth maangement and contention is set by Vodafone not another provider, so there is downside to getting closer to the customer in cabinet terms.  If Chorus was to offer raw backhaul bandwidth from cabinets (unlikely I would have thought) then sub local loop unbundling becomes more appealing to alternate players I would have thought?!?!?

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  Reply # 151145 25-Jul-2008 00:24
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PaulBrislen:
The service is up to 50Mbit/s down and 20Mbit/s up BUT (and it's a big BUT) you have to be within 1km of the exchange to get it.


sounds like a good solution for every existing apartment building, office building, or high density housing development with an onsite pbx room, but i'm not so sure its necessarily worth it if you have to lose adsl2+ ports to get vdsl ports.  if the same port runs all protocols but you have to spend a lot of money to get there then I'd rather that money was pooled between everybody and used for the rollout of FTTH.

FTTH brings so many more possibilities - some of which freitasm mentioned - without the distance limitation, significantly more future capacity and higher reliability.

I still can't believe that there has been so much development of land, apartments etc in the last 10 years and hardly any fibre has been laid.




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  Reply # 151148 25-Jul-2008 01:01
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Totally worthless having those speeds with the low caps that are on offer on the current plans.

If it was to have unlimited local traffic even, then it would be useful

At the moment I cant even see the value in moving to adsl2+ when the best you can offer is 40 gigs, and considering I used 50 in 7 days on a crappy 1900k downstream, it makes no sense to go any faster if you cant actually use it. Like buying a supercar with a half litre gastank.




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Reply # 151152 25-Jul-2008 02:04
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I would happy throw away all our clients tape drives, and host offsite backups, this would allow us a few hundred dollar total budget for 1/2TB of local data a month :-)

Of course, being Vodafone the first 1TB would be $50, the second TB $10 and the third TB would be $512, oh wait thats my Vodem :-)

 

Seriously though, for a business customer, certain things now become possible, like not having servers onsite at all, the big question for us is the SLA's which come with the connection, and also it seems the knowledge of deployment/support Vodafone has with their new shiny network. 

 

Telecom have been running DSLAMS for a decade and a half and have a lot of knowledge of running large networks and counting in MB/s, and Vodafone are still counting minutes as their main revenue driver.

 

The rise of the dumb network, hopefully at a smart price. 





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Reply # 151172 25-Jul-2008 08:34
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PaulBrislen: Hi all, I won't put the whole release up here unless someone wants to see it but I am interested in your views on VDSL2...

We're trialling it right now, launching later in the year.

The service is up to 50Mbit/s down and 20Mbit/s up BUT (and it's a big BUT) you have to be within 1km of the exchange to get it.

1: Is that distance to the exchange going to be a limiting factor for you as a customer?

The second point is the price - this is a premium product targetted at businesses but I think there's room in the high-end consumer market for a VDSL2 product.

2: How much would the market bear in terms of price for speed? Is more speed worth paying more for?

Finally, data caps. Given the speeds (particularly the upload) just how much of a cap is enough for VDSL2 services?

3: How much data do you need with a 50/20 service?

Bonus question: I hear a lot of talk about how the only solution to NZ's broadband problems is fibre. Given these speeds what would you use the service for (and what couldn't you do with this that you would be doing with fibre to the home)?

Cheers

Paul
Paul, Fibre is by FAR the best solution to solve New Zealand's generally very slow speeds, as it doesn't have any Speed Drop Off issues with the crucial "Distance from the Exchange Component". Of course the next vital factor is International Bandwidth, of which I understand the Southern Cross Cable is going up to 1.4TB by the middle of next year & Kordia are supposedly laying another 240GB Cable to Sydney, Australia, by 2010. So far as Data caps, IF people are lucky enough to live on top of an VDSL2+ enabled exchange, then upto 200GB of Data should be offered, plans/prices could range from $175 for 150GB, to $210 for 200GB per month, including Landline of course. Whilst it is great to see Vodafone offering these sorts of speeds soon, VDSL2+ will only ever be a niche market offering, due to the strict requirement of customers having to be sitting on their nearest exchange, which makes it no option for 85-90% of customers, whereas Fibre to Home will not have this issue at all.

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