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213 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 170374 10-Oct-2008 09:47
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Talkiet:
Yes I do understand - One of my internet connections at home is with Xnet. I was happy with the performance until the torrent plan was implemented since I browse sometimes after midnight.


They can`t keep everyone happy, unfortunately. They make business decisions based on numbers. I guess they made some research and found that Not many people stay up after midnight to use the internet. There will always be exceptions of course. Maybe they could shrink that free period a little, like mentioned before. It would still do the job it`s meant to.




If honest work and justice are not enough - we'll get a lawyer.

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Geek


  Reply # 170408 10-Oct-2008 13:11
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Seems my post got eaten.

I dont see why people blame other subscribers for poor service, as it is the isp that provides the service.
It is up to the isp to ensure that all users get a minimum level of service.

It should not be up to other users to be 'polite' and reduce/modify their usage of a service which they are also paying for for the sake of other users.

Though I do agree with the posts that Ragnor made at the begining of this topic in regards to traffic management.

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Master Geek


  Reply # 170410 10-Oct-2008 13:33
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Ok, since the other thread got locked.

Some people are saying that Xnet told them Torrent users were being shaped. Other Xnet staff say we're not.

They can't just scrap the torrent plan because it will cause peak bandwidth issues as people will download anything whenever. They said they will be getting more bandwidth but this will cause a huge wastage during peak time as the peak time bandwidth issue is over.

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  Reply # 170415 10-Oct-2008 14:04
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I'm parapharsing much of this from various blogs, articles and whitepapers I've looked at over the last couple of months but here's the reality (imo):

1:  Bit Torrent and p2p is here to stay, usage will continue to grow exponentially.

2:  ISP's must deal with p2p traffic growth otherwise the user experience of their service will be so bad that their brand/business will suffer widespread negative PR.

3:  High profile media companies will adopt p2p networks for low cost content delivery.  Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 patches and updates via bit torrent, legitimate dvd/movie releases via p2p Netflix etc.

4:  P2P is designed to consume as much bandwidth as is available this means every time an ISP buys more international bandwidth it will be consumed almost immediately.  With no management of p2p buying additional bandwidth will have little long term effect on performance and quality of the service other than increasing bandwidth costs for the ISP.

5:  Many people now use p2p services, draconian style limiting or completely blocking p2p traffic will lead to customer dissatisfaction and increase churn.

6:  Stopping p2p via protocol detection or deep packet inspection is expensive and slow, also it's unlikely to remain working in the long run as developers or p2p clients change/adjust protocol encryption in response.

So the ISP's are facing:

- Technical challenges that are a moving target
- Strong likelyhood of customer dissatisfaction
- Damage to their reputation and brand
- Ever increasing costs for bandwidth to maintain decent performance for normal use (web, email, youtube, gaming, voip)

Any ISP not looking very closely at caching p2p and doing equitable per user (not per connection) allocation or bandwidth right now is nuts.

The first ISP to successfully implement both in NZ could be hugely successful.

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  Reply # 170422 10-Oct-2008 14:42
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wh0beme:
bazzer:
wh0beme: I limit mine to 100 max, and upload to 8KB/s. So should you all.

How does limiting your uplaod to 8KB/s help? Isn't that kind of against the principles of torrenting? What's your share ratio like?
Dude im on the 128k up plan....

128/8 * 80% (rule of thumb) ~= 13KB/s, but that's none of my business really...
Edit: Did you delete your post?

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Master Geek


  Reply # 170425 10-Oct-2008 15:04
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bazzer:
wh0beme:
bazzer:
wh0beme: I limit mine to 100 max, and upload to 8KB/s. So should you all.

How does limiting your uplaod to 8KB/s help? Isn't that kind of against the principles of torrenting? What's your share ratio like?
Dude im on the 128k up plan....


128/8 * 80% (rule of thumb) ~= 13KB/s, but that's none of my business really...

Edit: Did you delete your post?

Well i decided not to feed the troll.

I need that other 5KB/s for browsing
edit: typo

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Geek
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  Reply # 170539 11-Oct-2008 01:01
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Good to see xnet have sorted their s*** out

Oh wait...

Nevermind

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/7705/lowspeedsoh0.jpg

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  Reply # 170541 11-Oct-2008 01:55
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I read here some posts quoting the excess usage clauses of xnet, and their right to shape and throttle those who are deemed to be abusing the service...

Last month, I used only 3.03GB...
So far this month, I have only used 0.83GB...

I can by no measure be described as abusing the service...yet my speeds during the off peak hours have crashed, almost impossible to even a webpage at times.

That implys to me that everyone on the Torrent plan has been put into this 'limited bandwidth pool'...not just the abusers by also those who are responsible.

As I have stated before, I have no problem if xnet tell me this plan can no longer be supported in its current form, and the terms have to be changed or it scrapped altogether....but myself and everyone else on this plan, need to be told this...and need to be told sooner rather than later.

If this current situation continues...poor speeds and various explanations as to why...it will be another Go-Large fiasco...and xnets reputation will suffer as a consiquence...which will cost them alot more money in the long run than that of losing a few heavy downloading customers.

The key to any good business...is communication...thats what we need now.




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Geek
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  Reply # 170546 11-Oct-2008 07:03
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Firstly I want to give Xnet a heads up for their original ground-breaking service and innovative plans. Until the infamous Torrent Plan (as of about a week ago), I've been nothing but delighted with Xnet.

I understand the reasons given here and by Xnet for why Torrent is not working. What I'm not clear about is if this plan has degenerated to the point of non-functionality, why is it still being offered? That I do not get.

I've found Torrent is useless at any point in its midnight to 8am cycle, no matter how the client is tweaked. What is there is mainly 0k download speed. I'm a web designer and use the net at all hours. The inability to even browse during the Torrent time slot is inexcusable.

Xnet - I've contacted your support staff by phone and by email, was given several support ticket numbers and several "all-fixed-just-reboot-your-router" emails. All fixed? You must be joking and/or obfuscating.

I want to stay with Xnet and am happy to be flexible and change to another plan that will let me browse after midnight.

Meantime I do have several suggestions for Xnet:

  • Be truthful with your customers. Obfuscation will come back to bite you in the buttocks.
  • If something is not working, get rid of it pronto. IOW "Sh*t or get off the pot Xnet".
  • Your customers will forgive you if you've made a mistake, but they'll never forget how you treated them.



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Reply # 170549 11-Oct-2008 08:11
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MrRex: Good to see xnet have sorted their s*** out

Oh wait...

Nevermind

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/7705/lowspeedsoh0.jpg


Please keep this thread discussion about ideas, as other posters are doing. Replies like this are a sure way to get the discussion locked and no one is happy after that.





58 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 170552 11-Oct-2008 08:40
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TheBartender: I read here some posts quoting the excess usage clauses of xnet, and their right to shape and throttle those who are deemed to be abusing the service...

Last month, I used only 3.03GB...
So far this month, I have only used 0.83GB...

I can by no measure be described as abusing the service...yet my speeds during the off peak hours have crashed, almost impossible to even a webpage at times.

That implys to me that everyone on the Torrent plan has been put into this 'limited bandwidth pool'...not just the abusers by also those who are responsible.

As I have stated before, I have no problem if xnet tell me this plan can no longer be supported in its current form, and the terms have to be changed or it scrapped altogether....but myself and everyone else on this plan, need to be told this...and need to be told sooner rather than later.

If this current situation continues...poor speeds and various explanations as to why...it will be another Go-Large fiasco...and xnets reputation will suffer as a consiquence...which will cost them alot more money in the long run than that of losing a few heavy downloading customers.

The key to any good business...is communication...thats what we need now.

But the thing is...
They willingly give us 75gb data/month, so using it all is hardly "abusing", since they offer it to us. Its like saying your abusing your internet for using your 40gb cap.

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  Reply # 170555 11-Oct-2008 08:50
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TheBartender: Last month, I used only 3.03GB...
So far this month, I have only used 0.83GB...


So why are you on the Torrent plan then? It makes no sense.

As I wrote in my blog, ISPs should differentiate attacking niche markets - but only if they have the infrastructure for that.

Telecom can do it due to its size - and even so they manage to do it wrong, although these days I don't hear people complaining about Telecom broadband speeds. They also provide "added value" with Yahoo!Xtra services, Flickr Pro accounts and security software.

TelstraClear provide some good services, and now free traffic to games, videos and Trade Me.

They differentiate by adding value. Other ISPs try to compete in price, which will only led them to people overloading the scarce resources.

ISPs should charge more for better services, not less. I am not saying they should charge more for the same service - but for better services.






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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 170569 11-Oct-2008 10:16
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As I stated on your blog, you're quite right. Leave the cost cutting to the larger ISP's while the smaller ones need to find a good niche and exploit it.

213 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 170582 11-Oct-2008 11:59
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In my opinion the Torrent plan was a very good idea economically. Before, there was a big blank period at night when bandwidth was just being wasted. With the Torrent plan, that period became utilized, allowing for more satisfied customers.




If honest work and justice are not enough - we'll get a lawyer.

97 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 170584 11-Oct-2008 12:13
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I'm not sure that I have said this in here yet, but they cannot just remove the Torrent plan. The entire idea of the Torrent plan was to move the peak time bandwidth issue to another timeslot (12am to 8am). If they remove the plan, people sure as hell wont continue only to download during offpeak. This means we go back to the beginning with peak time bandwidth issues.

I'm going to give a paraphrased summary of my ideas about this plan

A) "Free" data isnt free. We get so called "free" data by paying 1.5x the cost for data during peak time. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
B) Cannot scrap plan. Will lead to peak bandwidth issues
C) If they advertise 75gb "free", one should assume that every user should be able to reach 75gb between 12am and 8am and not just a select few. Xnet do not guarantee service but they aim to provide "adequate" service. If a user can only get 3gb down in one month between 12am and 8am it shall be deemed as inadequate whereas if I can get 70gb done off peak it shall be deemed adequate.

attilathegorilla: In my opinion the Torrent plan was a very good idea economically. Before, there was a big blank period at night when bandwidth was just being wasted. With the Torrent plan, that period became utilized, allowing for more satisfied customers.


Yes, and now they say they are getting more bandwidth to fix the off-peak issue. Won't this just see a wastage of bandwidth during peak time?

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