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27 posts

Geek


  # 285148 25-Dec-2009 17:59
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peroski:
ZollyMonsta:
ohpersven:
it's actually a very simple problem and has a very simple solution.
from what i understand, it's just how tcl "connects" to youtube, it is possible to change how this works, but that costs more money ;)


You go on thinking that.... and have a Merry Christmas :P


ZollyMonsta, your comment suggests that you work for TCL or have more information on the topic than the rest of us... Perhaps if this is the case you could enlighten us, rather than just discrediting ohpersven's comments... or if you do indeed work for TCL you'll just keep quiet about the issue.



Either way, I doubt anyone would voice their 'opinion' about the matter as it may be career limiting....


It's almost like TCL needs a PR person to keep the public informed as to why their connections are so crappy :)!

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  # 285151 25-Dec-2009 18:35
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ohpersven:

Either way, I doubt anyone would voice their 'opinion' about the matter as it may be career limiting....



Got it in one.




Check out my LPFM Radio Station at www.thecheese.co.nz cool


 
 
 
 


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Geek
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  # 285174 25-Dec-2009 20:58

The answers are available...

TelstraClear like most ISP's in nz use dns and web caching technology to deliver a better quality internet experience and honour the various specs in the IETF/RFCs...

The team at google are rate limiting the connections and it affects all users.
http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/youtube/thread?tid=13cf299c6a228bb8&hl=en#all

Google have the technology to rate limit and degrade the youtube experience. Using a packet sniffer you can see that they are rate limiting the connection.
For every interaction with google they choose where traffic is directed not your isp.

Google also have the technology to lower googles traffic costs called a google global cache.  ISPs around the globe are installing these at there cost to deliver youtube at acceptable levels.
Google marks its youtube traffic so that it cant be cached using a standards based web cache deployed by most ISPs.

As a client of any isp you are empowered to use technology to your advantage

If Google use DNS to force you to use a server farm that is rate limited then send your dns queries to where your going to get a better quality connection. This is completely independent of your ISP.

If you use open dns or any other 3rd party caching name server you will be sent to a google cache (fast) located in there network or to a central google server configured to limit your connection (slow).

eg using open dns returns a google cache address (fast)

> cache.googlevideo.com
Server:  resolver1.opendns.com
Address:  208.67.222.222

Non-authoritative answer:
Name:    cache.l.google.com
Address:  208.117.254.158
Aliases:  cache.googlevideo.com

using googles open dns service returns a standard (slow) google server

> cache.googlevideo.com
Server:  google-public-dns-a.google.com
Address:  8.8.8.8

Non-authoritative answer:
Name:    cache.l.google.com
Address:  74.125.103.83
Aliases:  cache.googlevideo.com

using TelstraClear's recommended dns returns a standard (slow) google server

> cache.googlevideo.com
Server:  ns1.acld.clix.net.nz
Address:  203.97.78.43

Non-authoritative answer:
Name:    cache.l.google.com
Address:  74.125.103.101
Aliases:  cache.googlevideo.com

for those with a linux gateway using dnsmasq add these lines to your config and watch youtube fly.

server=/youtube.com/208.67.222.222
server=/1e100.net/208.67.222.222

Enjoy!

The information expressed and imparted is wholly my opinion and not that of my employer or any other person/thing/entity.

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  # 285175 25-Dec-2009 21:03


I found an update on the TCL YouTube streaming issues on knowit.co.nz. TCL apparently advised:

?...Basically it does appear to be an issue with how our connections handle youtube traffic as a whole. We are working to get this situation fixed up as soon as possible, however there are many limitations that prevent an instant fix. All I can say is that the issue is being looked into and we hope to have it resolved soon. Unfortunately I cannot give a specific timeframe at this stage.?
[Source: http://knowit.co.nz/2009/12/telstraclears-youtube-stutter]

TelstraClear know about the problem. They choose not to list it on the Service Status page on the TCL website. In this regard, they are publicly misrepresenting the quality of the TCL Broadband service.


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Geek


# 285177 25-Dec-2009 21:16
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Thank you for taking the time to explain the situation in detail Techie 

45 posts

Geek


  # 285179 25-Dec-2009 22:04
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I have three broadband connections: TCL cable, and DSL from Vodafone and Orcon. When YouTube has been bad lately, it's been bad on all three. This is _not_ just a TCL problem. I have mentioned this twice in this discussion, but each time people ignored my comment, perhaps because they don't want their prejudices (or ignorance) disturbed. There are some blinkered individuals around.

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  # 285193 25-Dec-2009 23:52
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TelstraClear know about the problem. They choose not to list it on the Service Status page on the TCL website.


They choose not to list much on their status page! Wink Whatever's listed there is usually well after the event anyway.

Was going to change over to the Homeplan and save something like 14c a month to get 15gb more, but seeing as they kill off Paradise email account(s) at changeover, I might scout around for somewhere else.

 
 
 
 


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  # 285225 26-Dec-2009 09:13
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Techie: The answers are available...


They might be available, but TelstraClear is not making those public.

Techie: TelstraClear like most ISP's in nz use dns and web caching technology to deliver a better quality internet experience and honour the various specs in the IETF/RFCs...

The team at google are rate limiting the connections and it affects all users.
http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/youtube/thread?tid=13cf299c6a228bb8&hl=en#all

Google have the technology to rate limit and degrade the youtube experience. Using a packet sniffer you can see that they are rate limiting the connection.

For every interaction with google they choose where traffic is directed not your isp.


Yes, and no. In the past we found out that using an third party DNS such as OpenDNS would cause problems with TelstraClear paths to services using a CDN - for example try using OpenDNS and accessing Facebook to see broken links, broken CSS and slow access. This is because the OpenDNS returns an IP that's closer to their own servers, instead of the one pointing to the CDN endpoint closer to TelstraClear.

A connection is open from a TelstraClear client to that IP address, but the return comes from the closest CDN endpoint after Facebook decides the best path. At that point the TelstraClear cache and firewall get lost because they can't see a corresponding outbound connection and the response is then disconnected (short version of the long story).

I believe Google may be doing it, and like other large content distributors it will try to provide connections where the endpoint is closer to the clients requesting it.

Obviously somewhere in the TelstraClear network the DNS is not working ok, or the cache or the firewall - whatever it is, it is not clear to users yet because TelstraClear has been very quiet about this problem.

Someone at TelstraClear told me this is how Google is trying to "force" ISPs to give the company "free bandwidth". I am not sure this is exactly the reason. 




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  # 285226 26-Dec-2009 09:17
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jmacg: I have three broadband connections: TCL cable, and DSL from Vodafone and Orcon. When YouTube has been bad lately, it's been bad on all three. This is _not_ just a TCL problem. I have mentioned this twice in this discussion, but each time people ignored my comment, perhaps because they don't want their prejudices (or ignorance) disturbed. There are some blinkered individuals around.


jmacg, other providers may have the same problems, no one is saying it is "just a TCL problem". It may be that the users on the other networks couldn't be bothered complaining?

Saying this problem affects other providers (and from your post it seems TCL, VFNZ and Orcon are affected) is fine, but no one is ignoring your post. It's just that this thread is about TelstraClear problems, which didn't exist until about a month ago.

If you have problems on Vodafone or Orcon, feel free to start discussions on the other parts of the forum.





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  # 285227 26-Dec-2009 09:17
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  # 285250 26-Dec-2009 12:52
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I tried Techie's suggestion of using OpenDNS (but only for one machine) and YT seems to run much faster for me. Still stops and starts on HD video but SD plays fine. And Facebook also works fine (though I don't use it that much) so I think I will keep this setting on this machine until I discover other problems.




Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD.  https://www.airbnb.co.nz/rooms/32019730  Mention GZ to get a 10% discount

 

System One: Popcorn Hour A200,  PS3 SuperSlim, NPVR and Plex Server running on Gigabyte Brix (Windows 10 Pro), Sony BDP-S390 BD player, Pioneer AVR, Raspberry Pi running Kodi and Plex, Panasonic 60" 3D plasma, Google Chromecast

System Two: Popcorn Hour A200 ,  Oppo BDP-80 BluRay Player with hardware mode to be region free, Vivitek HD1080P 1080P DLP projector with 100" screen, Denon AVRS730H 7.2 Channel Dolby Atmos/DTS-X AV Receiver, Samsung 4K player, Google Chromecast, Odroid C2 running Kodi and Plex

 

 


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Geek
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  # 285293 26-Dec-2009 19:38



The Internet was designed and built under the premise that the "edge" is clever and the "core" is not so clever.

This is a good thing!
Why?
The edge (clients, CDN's and content providers) have ultimate control and the core (ISPs and transit providers) just move packets as quickly as possible to the destinations requested by the edge.

My post was about the edge/clients (youtube watchers) being empowered to use the algorithm used by youtube to our benefit instead of our demise.

The configuration for dnsmasq on my gateway sends all dns queries about *.youtube.com and *.1e100.net to open dns. All non other dns queries are sent to the TelstraClear dns caching resolvers @ 203.97.78.43.
This speeds up youtube and keeps sites that use other CDN's like akamai, amazon and limelight happyish.

You dont have to use Open DNS. You can choose as there is several dns caching machines in NZ and OZ that will send you to a faster youtube server.

The fact that Youtube/Google (content provider and edge) did not publish there intentions and plans is odd. Its disappointing that there not communicating the fundamental change and acknowledging the issue.
This makes it harder for the ISPs of the world to come to terms with this change and having to create work arounds and can lead to "bad" things.
The ISPs and there equipment are doing as they are told by the edge. No more no less.

ISPs that get a bit to involved with the flow of traffic can cause odd and bad things to happen. Simple and honest is good thing.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_roundup/

I have also raised a fault ticket with the "Mountain View Chocolate Factory" aka google/youtube why there are rate limiting my viewing of youtube.
I have also raised a fault ticket with TelstraClear why they are letting youtube limit my viewing of youtube and what they can do to resolve the issue. I will share what i learn!

The information expressed and imparted is wholly my opinion and not that of my employer or any other person/thing/entity.



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  # 285302 26-Dec-2009 20:43
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Or in simple terms, Joe-User should not have to fiddle with 'reasonable defaults' in order to make stuff work.

Why should I change the DNS used by my entire environment just to _bypass_ some rediculous _cleverness_ which is infact, causing FAILure?





No signature to see here, move along...

45 posts

Geek


  # 285366 27-Dec-2009 07:35
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Right now Orcon, where I am for a while now, is OK too. And so, most of the time, was Vodafone (at work) and TCL cable (at home) earlier in the week before Xmas. The previous week all three had been awful.

Earlier, Mauricio Freitas said, "jmacg, other providers may have the same problems, no one is saying it is "just a TCL problem"."

Well yes, Maurico, they had been - at least inferring that. That's why I suggested some wider perspective could be in order. I see that now this discussion _is_ ranging wider and seeing Google itself as part of the problem.

You also said TCL's problems "didn't exist until about a month ago."

The problem has been around for a lot longer than that. My son, who has a separate TCL connection in Wellington, has been battling with TCL over this issue for several months.

I have always had buffering problems with both YouTube and other places here at our Martinborough weekender, first when it was an Ihug/Vodafone connection and more recently when I switched to Orcon.


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  # 285371 27-Dec-2009 07:57
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No one ever said it wasn't a problem influenced from outside of TelstraClear. And this didn't imply a "wider discussion" was needed. At some point a *possible* cause was identified - this was only in the last week or so. Before that people were complaining only.

Note that I only joined the complaints in the only week and while I am not excluding a possible cause outside TelstraClear, I want TelstraClear to act on my behalf and solve it - by either changing its configuration or getting someone else to do it.

I can't say much more since - I did get information from someone at TelstraClear that is pretty much what some people have commented, that is that Google "demands free fat pipes" - which in my view means peering, which TelstraClear is always shy of.

Someone commented about Olof being quiet. Yes, he's away on leave until the 11th January.




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