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86 posts

Master Geek


Topic # 59145 28-Mar-2010 15:05
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Hey Guys,

Out of curiosity, I decided to Google for any news articles regarding unbundling the local loop. To my horror, it's almost been three years since this was headline news (http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/18969). I've also noted that Vodafone don't have the Red Network map any more, but instead you get the opportunity to check your address (http://www.vodafone.co.nz/broadband/) to see if it falls within the "Red zone".

I'm a Dunedin resident and my (isolated) download rate is between 3.75 mb/s to 4mb/s. My ping is also around 160ms for Auckland and around 80ms for the rest of the country (tests done via Speedtest.net).

Does anybody (with an ear to the grape vine!) know when Dunedin exchanges/cabinets will be unbundled? Part of my motivation for asking this is the Fibre to the Door advertisement on TV (http://www.fibretothedoor.co.nz/). It's nice that any improvement to the infrastructure for Auckland will have a follow on affect for the rest of the country (e.g. ping). I realise that whilst living in Dunedin, part of my data will arrive via carrier pigeon or pack animal, but how far away will any upgrade be?

Any thoughts?

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  Reply # 312055 28-Mar-2010 15:12

Between the price for sub loop unbundling and the recent pronouncements on fibre copper unbundling's pretty much in stasis. Too costly for mass cabinet unbundling and too little time between opening an exchange and cabinetisation. Add in talk of moving to fibre in the same time frame and llu becomes difficult to do a business case for.

If it had been introduced when it should have been all this might be quite different.

Cheers

Paul




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  Reply # 312059 28-Mar-2010 15:21
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The downfall of unbundling was that it came at the same time as the move to cabinetisation. This in effect gave a very poor case for investment as by end end of 2011 the vast majority of customers in NZ will be fed from cabinets, not directly from exchanges. Installing equipment in a cabinet to serve say 30 customers simply fails at every level when you try and write a business case to justify a ROI.

Rollouts are still happening through, TCL have deployed ULL gear nationwide to a large number of exchanges and Slingshot have announced they are rolling out in Wellington and Christchurch.

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  Reply # 312061 28-Mar-2010 15:23
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UnrealWarCheek: Hey Guys,

Out of curiosity, I decided to Google for any news articles regarding unbundling the local loop. To my horror, it's almost been three years since this was headline news (http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/18969). I've also noted that Vodafone don't have the Red Network map any more, but instead you get the opportunity to check your address (http://www.vodafone.co.nz/broadband/) to see if it falls within the "Red zone".

I'm a Dunedin resident and my (isolated) download rate is between 3.75 mb/s to 4mb/s. My ping is also around 160ms for Auckland and around 80ms for the rest of the country (tests done via Speedtest.net).

Does anybody (with an ear to the grape vine!) know when Dunedin exchanges/cabinets will be unbundled? Part of my motivation for asking this is the Fibre to the Door advertisement on TV (http://www.fibretothedoor.co.nz/). It's nice that any improvement to the infrastructure for Auckland will have a follow on affect for the rest of the country (e.g. ping). I realise that whilst living in Dunedin, part of my data will arrive via carrier pigeon or pack animal, but how far away will any upgrade be?

Any thoughts?


HI

TelstraClear unbundled a shedload of exchanges in one go, including parts of Dunedin. No idea if you fall into that cachement, but it is available. You will need to call the contact centre though, to find out.

A




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  Reply # 312062 28-Mar-2010 15:24
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sbiddle: The downfall of unbundling was that it came at the same time as the move to cabinetisation. This in effect gave a very poor case for investment as by end end of 2011 the vast majority of customers in NZ will be fed from cabinets, not directly from exchanges. Installing equipment in a cabinet to serve say 30 customers simply fails at every level when you try and write a business case to justify a ROI.

Rollouts are still happening through, TCL have deployed ULL gear nationwide to a large number of exchanges and Slingshot have announced they are rolling out in Wellington and Christchurch.


You beat me to it!




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Master Geek


  Reply # 312067 28-Mar-2010 15:50
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Thank you Paul, Sbiddle, and Antoniosk for your prompt and honest replies!

Would the backbone of data communications be routed through fibre throughout New Zealand? I'd hate to think that TelstraClear/Telecom/Vodafone et al are all laying their own cables/technology. The expression "Too many cooks spoil the broth" comes to mind.

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  Reply # 312068 28-Mar-2010 15:54
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UnrealWarCheek: Thank you Paul, Sbiddle, and Antoniosk for your prompt and honest replies!

Would the backbone of data communications be routed through fibre throughout New Zealand? I'd hate to think that TelstraClear/Telecom/Vodafone et al are all laying their own cables/technology. The expression "Too many cooks spoil the broth" comes to mind.


I don't know about the others, but from TCL's view we install our own fibre network to exchanges, and engineer a pretty good outcome.

Not that many cooks... but as always with copper, if telecom's copper was really poor before, no amount of LLU will ever make it better. That's called 'Put new copper'.

A




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Master Geek


  Reply # 312071 28-Mar-2010 16:22
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Thanks for the reply. I sometimes make the mistake of seeing New Zealand's internet/data network as being one large unified network instead of comprised of heterogeneous networks etc. Considering the infrastructure as it is, I'm relatively pleased with the broadband performance.

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  Reply # 312110 28-Mar-2010 17:46
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If your current copper connection is of some considerable length such that your sync rate is only around 4Mb/s then connecting to a LLU connection will not change anything as your line remains the same.

I presume you have checked if you will eventually be put on a cabinet or not by using the telecomwholesale tool.

Also, all telco providers mentioned in this thread will use fibre aggregation or backhauls to DSLAMs, other options just dont make sense anymore. Some will provide their own or rent from other providers (Vector, FXNet, Telstra or Telecom etc).

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  Reply # 312113 28-Mar-2010 17:55
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Basically the govt has removed any incentive to invest in anything right now because they are talking about the taxpayer subsidizing a selected company that they will choose to create a monopoly on offering internet. Who in their right mind will invest several million on kit when someone else will probably get a large sum soon to put their kit in, getting a much larger return on their portion of investment then whoever it was that invests now.

IMO telecom should have suspended the cabinet rollout as soon as the govt was talking about paying someone else to compete with them, but they have kept going ahead with it. Guess their share value is so trashed that it cant make it any worse....

VF and orcon are unhappy with the prices that telecom want to charge for a space in the cabinet or backhaul inorder to get a decent return on their investment, and they dont want to commit their own money to their own cabinet since they know it will be worthless the day they start up with any FTTH offerings.

So basically again the govt has screwed telecom who were the only ones going ahead with new infrastructure other than VF and orcon who took the cheap option of putting their gear in selected exchanges where they could take customers off telecoms wholesale ports leaving telecom wholesale to pick up the slack in the less and non profitable areas - no kiwishare subsidy for telecom on the DSL side of doing that either like they get for pstn.





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  Reply # 312118 28-Mar-2010 18:02
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VF and orcon are unhappy with the prices that telecom want to charge for a space in the cabinet or backhaul inorder to get a decent return on their investment, and they dont want to commit their own money to their own cabinet since they know it will be worthless the day they start up with any FTTH offerings.


ahhh, not quite, I think you will find the space rental was not an issue, it was the fact that Telecom wanted a considerable premium for the backhaul (compared to say an equivalent cross CBD link), and they offer no choice but to take a whole GigE rather than a portion of.

But in Telecoms defense, they have layed 216 core fibre or more in some circumstances (once the FTTN program completes late next year) to within 1.5-2km of 80% of dwellings in the land, some of this will be a longtime before its lit and I really doubt anyone is likely to follow suit for sometime (even taking concideration of the CF activities) so naturally they want some payback for that backhaul.

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Cyril

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  Reply # 312120 28-Mar-2010 18:07
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cyril7:

ahhh, not quite, I think you will find the space rental was not an issue, it was the fact that Telecom wanted a considerable premium for the backhaul (compared to say an equivalent cross CBD link), and they offer no choice but to take a whole GigE rather than a portion of.

But in Telecoms defense, they have layed 216 core fibre or more in some circumstances (once the FTTN program completes late next year) to within 1.5-2km of 80% of dwellings in the land, some of this will be a longtime before its lit and I really doubt anyone is likely to follow suit for sometime (even taking concideration of the CF activities) so naturally they want some payback for that backhaul.



Hmm, I was told that the splitting of cabinet cost was done in a way that they would have to get about 1/3rd of the ports in use for the rental of the space and power to stack up. Also when I asked there was no obligation to take the telecom back haul and they could have delivered their own to the cabinet.

Again, they would need a lot of customers to make it stack up.

You will notice that they are all totally silent when you ask them why VF+SS+orcon dont get togeher and share backhaul and dslams.




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  Reply # 312139 28-Mar-2010 18:53
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Again, they would need a lot of customers to make it stack up.


Hi, actually reading back over the various press statements, like this, it would seem that it was a mix of both space and backhaul, but I think the backhaul was mentioned in an interview I heard with Scott Bartlett (sorry cannot find it) as the real stinger.

I must admit the cost of $917/cabinet to run per month seems a little high, like its going to probably use 10% of that in power, and probably 10% of that max in rates, so wheres the rest of the ongoing "costs".

Ahhh well I am sure they have lots of those nasty bean counters that have well advised them.

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  Reply # 312145 28-Mar-2010 19:03
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Return on the capital cost of the cabinet. I read $22000 somewhere for them, not sure if thats the metal box and guts or the installation as well (seems very cheap if its the installation as well)

Telecom need to get return on those costs and the operatign costs of it, given that if vector get their way and go FTTH in auckland then immediatly the cabinets return is shot so that means they need to charge a higher price for it considering it may be depreciated to virtually nothing in a few years if the FTTH does happen.

Again, if they think it is too much then build their own cabinet seems to be a logical step to take, but they dont want to invest real money into plant like that, prefering just to cry to the govt for more regulation.




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  Reply # 312157 28-Mar-2010 19:24
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richms: Return on the capital cost of the cabinet. I read $22000 somewhere for them, not sure if thats the metal box and guts or the installation as well (seems very cheap if its the installation as well)



My understanding was the cost was closer to $200,000 per cabinet.


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  Reply # 312158 28-Mar-2010 19:26
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cyril7:
Again, they would need a lot of customers to make it stack up.


Hi, actually reading back over the various press statements, like this, it would seem that it was a mix of both space and backhaul, but I think the backhaul was mentioned in an interview I heard with Scott Bartlett (sorry cannot find it) as the real stinger.



But the catch here is that Telecom Retail need to pay the exact same costs that any other provider does to Telecom Wholesale for use of the cabinet. While the cost of the backhaul may be excessive it's a non regulated product and from memory the only similar base costings the comcom could find were from Germany!

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