silly girl, stolen phone, large bill.

Forums › One New Zealand (including Vodafone, WxC, Farmside) › silly girl, stolen phone, large bill.

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52 posts

Master Geek

#334043 24-May-2010 13:59

jpollock:

You're in customer service. Cool. There is a difference between cutting someone off and proactively notifying them that their behaviour is getting expensive.

So, have you ever worked in IT? Ever implemented a file server without both hard and soft usage quotas? How about a mail server?

Let's work through the example.

Your Father just died in the UK. You grab your phone, take a cab to the airport and pay 3k for a flight to the UK to get on the first flight out. While in the UK, you need to make a bunch of calls. You don't have time to go down to the shop and pick up a local prepaid sim, so you use your phone and rack up a bill at $5/minute. After 12 minutes on one call, you've hit a soft limit of 2x your usual usage (usually you don't go over plan, and your plan is $30/month).

The carrier automatically puts a flag on your account.

You finish your call and hang up.

The carrier's IN detects the disconnect and creates a call between you and the call center.

The call center staff verify your identity and have a discussion about overseas charges. They sell you an overseas roaming plan and (optionally) retroactively apply it. At the very least, they tell you that you've just spent $150, and see if you're surprised. Something like this:

"Hello, this is Jim from TNZ, we've noticed some dramatic changes in your account. You've just spent $150, so we would like to verify your identity. Can you please tell me your name, DOB and and home address?"
"Sure thing, Bill, Oct 1, 1980, 3 Wibble St, Auckland"
"Thank you Mr Jones, I see you're making a lot of calls in the UK, currently you're spending $5/minute, but if you switch to plan X, you can avoid most of those charges. Would you like to switch?"
"Wow, I didn't know that, yes please switch me."
"There, that's all done, is there anything else I can do to help? Will you be using the mobile for data while you are there? Those charges tend to surprise as well."
"No, just calls and SMS. Thank you"
"Very good Mr Jones, please call us if you have any problems"
"Good Bye"
"Good Bye"

Let's say that the telco can't get in touch with you. Eventually you hit the hard limit (let's say 5-10x monthly spend). The system then declines your calls, redirecting any outgoing attempts to the call center, as well as spamming you with SMS for every incoming call.

Hard to do? No. In fact, any carrier running eServGlobal's ChargingMax (shameless plug) product are able to implement that service out of the box (except perhaps the retro-active plan change - maybe even that!). The hardest part is coming up with the script for the call center people.

At the end of the day what your asking for is Telco's to take responsiblity for someone elses phone usage. It isn't hard for the customer to call to report their phone is stolen.

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richms

26394 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Subscriber

#334044 24-May-2010 14:02

"Hello, this is Jim from TNZ, we've noticed some dramatic changes in your account. You've just spent $150, so we would like to verify your identity. Can you please tell me your name, DOB and and home address?"

"No, prove you are from telecom" is the only correct answer to that

Richard rich.ms

johnr

19282 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#334045 24-May-2010 14:04

richms:
"Hello, this is Jim from TNZ, we've noticed some dramatic changes in your account. ?You've just spent $150, so we would like to verify your identity. ?Can you please tell me your name, DOB and and home address?"

"No, prove you are from telecom" is the only correct answer to that

Your so correct

kontonnz

137 posts

Master Geek

#334046 24-May-2010 14:06

this has been a rather interesting discussion but in regards to this specific case the girl did not call Vodafone and have a block put on it to prevent outgoing calls; she rang the phone someone answered and arranged a meet and exchange yet even then she still did not put a block on the phone she waited and waited; I fail to see why Vodafone should be lumbered as the "bad guy" which i am all for where it is appropriate but in this case she chose to do nothing thus she is liable for the costs the phone incurred.
In regards to putting limits on the phone I was under the impression that if you have an account with Vodafone they can already put a spend limit on the account if you request it?;

markh14

95 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#334054 24-May-2010 14:27

from visa:

Your peace of mind and protection are paramount to Visa. Visa's Zero Liability policy is our guarantee that you would not be held responsible for fraudulent charges made with your Visa payment card.

if the girl was with visa and someone stole her card and used it and she told visa this, she won't be liable.

this is how vodafone should be especially because it has been proven in court and the vodafone spokesperson is aware of the situation.

PhoenixNZ

52 posts

Master Geek

#334058 24-May-2010 14:29

markh14: from visa:

Your peace of mind and protection are paramount to Visa. Visa's Zero Liability policy is our guarantee that you would not be held responsible for fraudulent charges made with your Visa payment card.

if the girl was with visa and someone stole her card and used it and she told visa this, she won't be liable.

this is how vodafone should be especially because it has been proven in court and the vodafone spokesperson is aware of the situation.

Do you think Visa would be just as understanding if you acknowledged that your card was stolen and you didn't report it to them so that they could put a stop on it?

richms

26394 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Subscriber

#334063 24-May-2010 14:35

If your visa had the pin with it so they were able to use it authenticated then yes, the cardholder would be liable.

Phones have locks for a reason.

Richard rich.ms

VFNZPaulBrislen

970 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted

One NZ

#334067 24-May-2010 14:42

We do indeed have such a service - if you're roaming internationally or doing something dramatically out of the ordinary we will contact you to ask if you're aware your phone is being used in Countr X (or similar).

I haven't got permission from the customer to discuss this particular case in detail. All I can really say is that if she'd called us to say her phone had gone missing we would have put a block on it and then the bill would be zero. Instead she chose not to call us, the bill ended up around $2500 and as we have no contractual relationship with the third party (the "thief") we have no recourse to go back to that person to reclaim the money. She hasn't stolen anything from Vodafone.

This is quite clear cut - if your phone goes missing, call us and we'll block it. If you find it down the back of the couch or whatever, call us back and we'll unblock it.

It's easy, it's simple and it's effective.

Paul

Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz

Blindspot

58 posts

Master Geek

#334073 24-May-2010 14:59

I feel for her given she has to repay the debt faster than she recieves the money from the convicted theif, so will be out of pocket for a little bit.

It was a silly mistake on her part.

The correct thing to do would report it lost to Vodafone as they could at least bar all outgoing services until the phone is returned.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#334093 24-May-2010 15:46

jpollock:
PhoenixNZ:

I've worked in customer service for around six years now and I can tell you catergorically that the majority of customers hate it when their service is stopped, even if its for a good reason. You force them to call through to get it unblocked which most perceive as a waste of their time.

Usage changes, if a family member died overseas and you went roaming your likely to see a sigificant increase in your account the following month. Would you really want your service provider to cut you off while your in the middle of trying to sort the issue out?

You're in customer service. Cool. There is a difference between cutting someone off and proactively notifying them that their behaviour is getting expensive.

So, have you ever worked in IT? Ever implemented a file server without both hard and soft usage quotas? How about a mail server?

Let's work through the example.

Your Father just died in the UK. You grab your phone, take a cab to the airport and pay 3k for a flight to the UK to get on the first flight out. While in the UK, you need to make a bunch of calls. You don't have time to go down to the shop and pick up a local prepaid sim, so you use your phone and rack up a bill at $5/minute. After 12 minutes on one call, you've hit a soft limit of 2x your usual usage (usually you don't go over plan, and your plan is $30/month).

The carrier automatically puts a flag on your account.

You finish your call and hang up.

The carrier's IN detects the disconnect and creates a call between you and the call center.

The call center staff verify your identity and have a discussion about overseas charges. They sell you an overseas roaming plan and (optionally) retroactively apply it. At the very least, they tell you that you've just spent $150, and see if you're surprised. Something like this:

"Hello, this is Jim from TNZ, we've noticed some dramatic changes in your account. You've just spent $150, so we would like to verify your identity. Can you please tell me your name, DOB and and home address?"
"Sure thing, Bill, Oct 1, 1980, 3 Wibble St, Auckland"
"Thank you Mr Jones, I see you're making a lot of calls in the UK, currently you're spending $5/minute, but if you switch to plan X, you can avoid most of those charges. Would you like to switch?"
"Wow, I didn't know that, yes please switch me."
"There, that's all done, is there anything else I can do to help? Will you be using the mobile for data while you are there? Those charges tend to surprise as well."
"No, just calls and SMS. Thank you"
"Very good Mr Jones, please call us if you have any problems"
"Good Bye"
"Good Bye"

Let's say that the telco can't get in touch with you. Eventually you hit the hard limit (let's say 5-10x monthly spend). The system then declines your calls, redirecting any outgoing attempts to the call center, as well as spamming you with SMS for every incoming call.

Hard to do? No. In fact, any carrier running eServGlobal's ChargingMax (shameless plug) product are able to implement that service out of the box (except perhaps the retro-active plan change - maybe even that!). The hardest part is coming up with the script for the call center people.

I know nothing about Telco biling systems, but how quickly do you suppose the billing info comes through to the carrier in the 'home' country?

does it come to them instantly? Maybe it takes several days. I know the Broabband usage meter for national traffic takes several hours to update. If a similar meter for internatioanl calling existed it might only update overnight.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#334094 24-May-2010 15:51

markh14: from visa:

Your peace of mind and protection are paramount to Visa. Visa's Zero Liability policy is our guarantee that you would not be held responsible for fraudulent charges made with your Visa payment card.

if the girl was with visa and someone stole her card and used it and she told visa this, she won't be liable.

this is how vodafone should be especially because it has been proven in court and the vodafone spokesperson is aware of the situation.

Also from Visa:
https://www.bnz.co.nz/binaries/0904_tcs_creditcards.pdf

9. Your Liability
9.1
Your obligations: You agree:
e) to notify us immediately if your Card has been lost or
stolen or your PIN has or may have become known to
someone else;

9.3
Liability when Card is lost or stolen:

Once you have notified us that your Card has been lost or stolen,
or your PIN may have been disclosed to someone else, you will
not be liable after that time for any Transactions by someone else
using your Card.

9.4
Liability for loss before notification:

If any of the events in clause 9.3 apply, you will be liable for all
Transactions before you notified us, or for any loss which could
otherwise have been prevented up to the amount you yourself
would have been able to access during the time before you
notified us of the loss or theft of your Card, or the disclosure
of your PIN. If these Transactions cause your credit limit to be
exceeded, you will be liable to pay the excess amount without
delay.

Which means....

If you notify use as soon as you realise your card is stolen, then you will not be liable for charges after that time. If you don't bother, then you ARE liable for the charges.

Which, coincidentally is exactly how this girl's case works with vodafone.

kingjj

1728 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#334114 24-May-2010 16:16

Kyanar:
jpollock:
Talk about differentiation! I look forward to the first NZ carrier able to announce that they support a limited credit postpaid service.

You're in luck. Call up Vodafone, and ask for a credit limit. It can be done.

I thought that all new Vodafone Post Paid accounts came with a credit limit automatically? When I signed a new contract in December I was given a $250 credit limit. Does this limit get removed after a time or do people that move across from Prepay have no Credit Limit?

robbyp

1199 posts

Uber Geek

#334120 24-May-2010 16:28

I had my phone stolen once, and in that case I didn't realise it was stolen for about 3 days. Luckily it was a prepaid and only had a bit of credit left. However when I reported it to the police, they said that they can't believe that the mobile phone companies can't lock down they phone from their end in this type of situation. Also with contracts, people should have to enter in a pin or every so often, or have some other form of ID system, just in case it gets stolen. The technology exists. Most worring when a phone is stolen these days, is the amount of personal information that is stored on the phone. Mine as a password vault, which I assume could be hacked if someone stole my phone again.

MikeyPI

450 posts

Ultimate Geek

#334121 24-May-2010 16:29

1. VFNZ allow you put a credit limit on your phone....
2. Lock your freakin phone....

Good luck getting into my phone if I lost it. You'd have an easier time hacking the Police National Database..

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#334130 24-May-2010 16:43

robbyp: I had my phone stolen once, and in that case I didn't realise it was stolen for about 3 days. Luckily it was a prepaid and only had a bit of credit left. However when I reported it to the police, they said that they can't believe that the mobile phone companies can't lock down they phone from their end in this type of situation.

they can

Also with contracts, people should have to enter in a pin or every so often, or have some other form of ID system, just in case it gets stolen.

again, most phones have this capability. people just choose not to enable it

The technology exists. Most worring when a phone is stolen these days, is the amount of personal information that is stored on the phone. Mine as a password vault, which I assume could be hacked if someone stole my phone again.

probably, if they were that interested. It's unlikley they will have the knowledge or inclination to do so, and instead will try to use up as much creidt as possible, then when it runs out or gets barred will just sell the phone on trademe.

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