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  Reply # 513912 30-Aug-2011 13:30
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cyril: I believe they use BW management which means it could momentarily burst beyond 5Mbit, but he would never get more than 5Mbit overall. My father in law's connection was the same. I suggest he calls Telstra and finds out about the plan he is on.


Well if you want to take it that way then concider that the handover between TCL and Telecom wholesale is via a 48kb/s point, but how thats calculated is also time and overall traffic level related, as Gary says, your information is incorrect.

Cyril

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  Reply # 513935 30-Aug-2011 14:17
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cyril7:
cyril: I believe they use BW management which means it could momentarily burst beyond 5Mbit, but he would never get more than 5Mbit overall. My father in law's connection was the same. I suggest he calls Telstra and finds out about the plan he is on.


Well if you want to take it that way then concider that the handover between TCL and Telecom wholesale is via a 48kb/s point, but how thats calculated is also time and overall traffic level related, as Gary says, your information is incorrect.

Cyril


Ethernet handover links from Telecom wholesale to the ISP still do not currently have dimensioning applied, it's not clear whether they will or not (it's been delayed multiple times). 






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Reply # 513996 30-Aug-2011 16:52
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tasteywheat: I thought I'd post again just to give my view on where I think it all failed to the point where I was getting rather disillusioned.

Prior to posting in this forum I hadn't had ADSL before. I didn't know the in and outs of the in-home troubleshooting. I'm a software developer who has at least been trained in cisco CCNA courses ( I was a network major ... funny how things work out ) so I'd like to think that I'm not a completely clueless. I can read through technology standards and RFC's and understand them.

Yes, the problem was/still is my wiring and I acknowledge that.

Here are the facts as I know them:
1. ADSL is not cable and it was going to be slower
2. We were told to expect +- 12Mb/s after a check was done on our house location.
3. I told Telstra support that I thought there was a problem with the wiring in the house
4. I'd just moved in so didn't really know how the wires were configured

Now having been through the whole process with the benefit of hind sight the following questions arise.
Specific to my situation:
---------------------------
- How did the maximum of 5 Mb/s come into being when all information provided on internet a spec and in forums to, states that based on my anttenuation it should be higher ? I was told (I don't really know) this was a result of a technician checking the line from the exchange to my house. Working in IT I knew this to be wrong ... and clearly it was.
- Why didn't anyone listen to me when I said every call that I thought there was a problem with my house wiring. I said that from the start but was never told of any options as how I can get it checked or sorted by a qualified technician.

More general:
----------------
- At what (point if there is one) is broadband considered to be working correctly for adsl2 as it varies based on location and technology ?
- If you are providing a service of maximum speed broadband at what point do you draw the line with regard to ensuring that the customer gets it exactly that (some form of measures would be good here i.e maybe for adsl2+ you can have an anttenuation (db)/ speed chart). Maximum speed broadband is badly defined.
- If house wiring isn't a teleco's responsiblity fix/test then can't they at least forward you on to a professional who can.
- If you pay the line maintenance fee then where does that leave you in reagrd to problematic house wiring ?

I think the problem wasn't well managed at all. In some cases people on the phone didn't even update my support ticket with all the information, so I just ended up with people repeating the same process back to me instead of proceding forward on solving the problem. It then got to the point where I was told that 5Mb/s is good for adsl2+ and that is the maximum I can ever expect. So seeing as I was getting that the problem was solved.

Working in software I can see why house wiring isn't supported, people can mess with it. As a software developer if software doesn't work properly due to enviroment, we tell them to contact their IT company to change the enviroment if they can't do it them selves or guide them through if it's simple enough to explain on the phone.

I've never had such a problem with telstra support but, that said I never really had a problem with cable so there wasn't a need to call them.

From a technical side it's great that I've identified all or part of the problem and the increase speed is more inline with what I'd expect +- 100% increase in todays world of streaming in websites it makes a big difference.

From a customer side I'm disappointed it feels like someone sold me a broken car and then tried to tell me there was nothing wrong with it.


^^^ I wonder if I'll get answers to the general questions above. I don't expect answers for the ones specific to my situation with my ticket being reviewed.

Gbowering:
networkn: Telstras connections are locked at 5Mbit.


Hi networkn,

This is incorrect. The theortical speed for ADSL2+ is 24Mbps. Real-world considerations impact on a customers' actual ADSL2+ speed.

Cheers, Gary


Gary, your response here makes the fact I was told that at 5Mbps attainable rate was my connection working correctly even more frustrating.



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  Reply # 514022 30-Aug-2011 17:57
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Q: So after removing socket 3 from the wiring what is your downstream line rate and line attenuation in the modem now?




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  Reply # 514131 30-Aug-2011 22:20
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Ragnor: Q: So after removing socket 3 from the wiring what is your downstream line rate and line attenuation in the modem now?



See the status below







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  Reply # 514321 31-Aug-2011 11:08
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Just got off the phone with Telstra, they called to see how things are going. So I thought I'd raise the question
"How did the technician come up with 5Mbps when checking my line?"
Well that just lead to "the line was only capable of 5Mbps" and my modem could be the problem or my house wiring.

So the question I have now is:

If the wiring in my house was faulty does the mess up the entire line from my house to the exchange? If I connected to my line say from the street (I.E before the wiring in my house) will that entire line to that exchange be limited by the faulty wiring in the house ?

Why ask this question, well because a tech was sent to check the line to my house but I wasn't home which means he obviously would not have checked the line at the faulty wiring section.

Why am I hooked on this 5Mbps, well because its clear the line was capable of more so there was in fact a fault.
When they determine maximum speed they include the wires in my house and call that my "line", when they do support my "line" doesn't include the wires in my house. Broadband doesn't state my expected line speed which means at the end of the day my ISP can deliver what ever they want and call that broadband as long as it's at least a couple of Mbps as that's faster than dialup.

If the answer to the question above the is no the there is clearly a fault in the way the line speed is determined and doesn't reflect the capability of the line up to the outside of my house.

I must also note that regardless how much time I've spent on the phone to support none of them provided the solution and the impression I get is that the support at the other end don't know about the technology they're supposed to be supporting, at least for ADSL.


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  Reply # 514326 31-Aug-2011 11:13
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As I said earlier, LOTS of ADSL Connections with TCL are bandwidth managed to limit the connection to 5Mbps. Half the staff don't know that there which is amazing considering how widespread it is. Doesn't matter what your connection speed or attainable speeds are, if they are limiting it, 5Mbps is the most you can expect to get except for out of band bursts.

I am not saying categorically it's that, but it sounds just like that

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  Reply # 514329 31-Aug-2011 11:19
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Hi, I dont quite understand what your current issue is, is there not a speedtest result shown above when you removed socket3 and connected at socket1 that shows 7.8Mb/s, this is well north of 5.

You modem is clearly syncing around 10Mb/s now, this indicates that changing your house wiring had a major impact. Telecom wholesale (and therefore TCL as the retailer) are only required to provide 10Mb/s sync rate, this would results in a maximum TCP throughput of aournd 8Mb/s, I think you have got to that point, and this rate is only required to 80% of connections so those too far out can still acceptably get less.

Also to try and confirm your current house wiring, the last modem stats you provided from socket1, this included the removal of socket3, but did this also include the removal of the green line (in your diagram) that feeds it right back to the point that it connects to the direct inbound line from the demarc.

What you are trying to achieve is a single line from the demarc to the modem that does not split to other sockets, having it stop and carry on from Socket2 is fine as long as the modem is at the end of the line, not at socket 2. Therefore the total removal of the green line and any other stub line is important.

Cyril


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  Reply # 514391 31-Aug-2011 12:12
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networkn: As I said earlier, LOTS of ADSL Connections with TCL are bandwidth managed to limit the connection to 5Mbps. Half the staff don't know that there which is amazing considering how widespread it is. Doesn't matter what your connection speed or attainable speeds are, if they are limiting it, 5Mbps is the most you can expect to get except for out of band bursts.

I am not saying categorically it's that, but it sounds just like that


Your claim makes no sense, why would they manage domestic traffic like a speedtest to a server in their own data centre.... what's your source/proof for this claim?  

Personally at home we are on Telecom now but before that we were on Telstraclear ADSL and had no problem getting near line rate on domestic traffic and to telstraclear servers.

It's far more likely the problem is exchange/backhaul congestion as a few other people on the same exchange (PUI) have similar issues looking at threads on GZ and GPforums.

If a speedtest to the Telstraclear speedtest server is significantly lower than line rate the best approach is to keep complaining to the ISP, they should be able to determine if exchange congestion is the issue and log a job for Telecom wholesale to look at it.





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  Reply # 514415 31-Aug-2011 12:33
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cyril7: Hi, I dont quite understand what your current issue is, is there not a speedtest result shown above when you removed socket3 and connected at socket1 that shows 7.8Mb/s, this is well north of 5.

You modem is clearly syncing around 10Mb/s now, this indicates that changing your house wiring had a major impact. Telecom wholesale (and therefore TCL as the retailer) are only required to provide 10Mb/s sync rate, this would results in a maximum TCP throughput of aournd 8Mb/s, I think you have got to that point, and this rate is only required to 80% of connections so those too far out can still acceptably get less.

Also to try and confirm your current house wiring, the last modem stats you provided from socket1, this included the removal of socket3, but did this also include the removal of the green line (in your diagram) that feeds it right back to the point that it connects to the direct inbound line from the demarc.

What you are trying to achieve is a single line from the demarc to the modem that does not split to other sockets, having it stop and carry on from Socket2 is fine as long as the modem is at the end of the line, not at socket 2. Therefore the total removal of the green line and any other stub line is important.

Cyril


I think that from a technical side we can agree the problem has been identified and an interim solution was to disconnect socket 3 until I can get the house wired correctly to include the alarm because I would like to have it monitored.

The questions I'm posing to Telstra now is why were they prepared to leave say 5Mbps was fine at the time after I was originally told to expect +-12. There's a big difference here.

The problem I have is that I entered into a contract with Telstra on this basis. When it wasn't delivered I contacted support and after doing so then support turned round and said conveniently that 5Mbps was my max I could expect. This to me is unethical.

Now what does that mean well essentially my dollar per Mbps doubled, its now most definately not cost effective to stay with Telstra was already expensive to start at $75 for the phone and broadband connection + an additional $30 from 25GB data allowance. So what can I do support says there's nothing more they can do and insists that 5Mbps is good. ADSL2+ tech specs say it's not. Mentioning any tech specs to support lands on deaf ears, it's all "line speed" which now also conveniently means it doesn't include "inhouse wiring" .

The alarm wiring would of been installed by a proffesional and if you have an alarm then generally when you get broadband an ISP sends a tech who also does some wiring (house wiring too) so there is no reason to doubt the wiring in the house at first glance. The modem was sent by Telstra and is brand new so that's not my first suspect either.

I mentioned to support that there was possibly an issue with my wiring but was assured there wasn't because the isolation test was consistent across all sockets and was never given the oppertunity to have a tech come check the inhouse wiring, with or without me paying for it.

So from a customer persective anyone would be annoyed, it appears a Telstra has breached the contract but our plan is "Maximum speed" broadband so technically they haven't. So changing isn't even an option because of penalties that will be placed on us via Telstra.

The problem here is I feel they were prepared to leave me with a substandard connection. Based on the broadband map provided by telecom wholesale, ADSL2+ tech specs and what they originally stated.

So how they came up with the 5Mbps actually does matter to me and it should matter to Telstra to because it highlights a flaw in the troubleshooting process that wastes a lot of their time.

Where's the explanation ?

As for the demarc location I get home after dark so tracing the line is more something I have to do on the weekend


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  Reply # 514455 31-Aug-2011 13:30
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The alarm wiring would of been installed by a proffesional and if you have an alarm then generally when you get broadband an ISP sends a tech who also does some wiring (house wiring too) so there is no reason to doubt the wiring in the house at first glance. The modem was sent by Telstra and is brand new so that's not my first suspect either.


There is an additional $199 charge to have your house wiring checked and setup for DSL Broadband, this is in all the contracts and information I have seen from ISP's, the included filter is not that level of installation. Also do not expect an alarm installer to connect the phone circuit such that it is DSL friendly, in fact quite the opposite, a majority of DSL poor performance has been introduced by professional alarm installs.

Cyril

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  Reply # 514477 31-Aug-2011 13:51
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This situation isn't unique - it just shows the problems that people face and the implications of poor internal wiring on DSL sync speeds with self installs.

The reality is that unless you have a master filter install statistically speaking you WILL suffer a drop in maximum DSL performance, the degree of this drop depends entirely on the state of your home wiring.

IMHO anybody who wants the best performance from their DSL should pay for a master filter to be installed, whether this is done by Chorus or a 3rd party. If you have an alarm this is a necessity.









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  Reply # 514494 31-Aug-2011 14:19
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cyril7:
The alarm wiring would of been installed by a proffesional and if you have an alarm then generally when you get broadband an ISP sends a tech who also does some wiring (house wiring too) so there is no reason to doubt the wiring in the house at first glance. The modem was sent by Telstra and is brand new so that's not my first suspect either.


There is an additional $199 charge to have your house wiring checked and setup for DSL Broadband, this is in all the contracts and information I have seen from ISP's, the included filter is not that level of installation. Also do not expect an alarm installer to connect the phone circuit such that it is DSL friendly, in fact quite the opposite, a majority of DSL poor performance has been introduced by professional alarm installs.

Cyril


1. I told them I thought there was a fault, why didn't this get put on the solution table by the support team ?
2. It still doesn't answer how their technician came up with the 5Mbps while testing outside of the fault area ?
3. It also still doesn't explain why they said when my connection was at 5Mbps (attainable line rate not thoughput) that this was the best line speed I could expect for a connection to an ADSL2+ exchange in an urban area.
4. It also doesn't justify the back footing from the original 12Mbps to 5Mbps

As a customer you wouldn't think this is important or want answers ?


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  Reply # 514501 31-Aug-2011 14:34
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Yep I agree, there is some inconsistant reporting of info, the most annoying is that the tech said 5Mb/s, makes me think he did not infact do a test just thought "well your in the wops what do you expect", reality is you are now getting twice that and potentially more.

Dont like your chances of getting any more assistance.

Cheers
Cyril



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  Reply # 514505 31-Aug-2011 14:38
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sbiddle: This situation isn't unique - it just shows the problems that people face and the implications of poor internal wiring on DSL sync speeds with self installs.

The reality is that unless you have a master filter install statistically speaking you WILL suffer a drop in maximum DSL performance, the degree of this drop depends entirely on the state of your home wiring.

IMHO anybody who wants the best performance from their DSL should pay for a master filter to be installed, whether this is done by Chorus or a 3rd party. If you have an alarm this is a necessity.



That's great and knowing what I know now I will get that done. But, why wasn't this stated to me before getting the connection or during one of many support calls.
The promise of one thing and the delivery of only half that and the rather than turn around and say "We think your house wiring is faulty you'll need to get chorus to check it" they said "5Mbps ADSL2+ is a good connection for your location there's nothing more that can be done".

The thing that annoys me is that "5Mbps ADSL2+ is a good connection for your location" is a lie and I knew that it was.


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