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176 posts

Master Geek


  #519787 12-Sep-2011 09:19
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Athlonite: Some of you seem to be saying that Telstraclear seem to have no idea whether or not an cable modem is ON or OFF and that I find is just total twaddle...


You're totally right - they know, or rather, have the tools to find out.   But that information does not form part of their billing system.

637 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  #520106 12-Sep-2011 18:35
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jnawk:
As another poster proposed, unicast ARP is the easiest mechanism to fix this (BFD is another, but it's much harder on the BNG control plane).


From the very little I've read about BFD, unicast ARP would be better at detecting any computer / router at the customer end without requiring that PC / router be set up in some specific way, rather than just the cable modem itself.  (ie, I could switch my PC off (assuming I do the whole PC direct to cable modem thing), and ARP would fail, and I'd not be billed, even though my cable modem itself is on.   That would be the fairest solution.

Yes, I agree completely, and that's a very easily implemented solution.

However BFD is proposed in the semi-stalled WT-146 as MUST for the BNG and SHOULD for the Residential Gateway. There were many who were against this architecture proposal due to it being very CPU intensive on the BNG, and that unicast ARP works with more RGs deployed today (although there are quite a few braindead ones that don't work well with this).

The downside to standards is that you need to support all of it or you can't be standards compliant; although this does assume a more "managed RG" model than most NZ operators undertake today, though this is changing.

Interestingly the guy who proposed BFD in WT-146 is a DOCSIS-focused architect.

 
 
 
 


Cloud Guru
4062 posts

Uber Geek

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Snowflake
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  #520177 12-Sep-2011 21:21
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so the NZD caused by WWW or FTP when the modem is OFF could be solved by BFD or ARP when there is no PPP? OMG.




1828 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  #520266 13-Sep-2011 01:00
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jnawk:
Athlonite: Some of you seem to be saying that Telstraclear seem to have no idea whether or not an cable modem is ON or OFF and that I find is just total twaddle...


You're totally right - they know, or rather, have the tools to find out.?? But that information does not form part of their billing system.


Yes well seeing as there's a complaint laid then it bloody well should be but ISP's are lazy bunch doing only what needs to be done and nothing more it seems



62 posts

Master Geek


  #520691 13-Sep-2011 21:28
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TC have contacted us regarding the problem.

They say that the web-site usage display of traffic can be highly inaccurate. For instance, where it shows 4 GB downloaded in less than one hour: they say that this is probably an aggregate of many hours traffic.

This does not help us understand why our traffic has shot up recently.

We will now try to log individual usage (meters on each home computer) and correlate that with the TC reports.

176 posts

Master Geek


  #520757 14-Sep-2011 07:53
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May I suggest turning on SNMP on all the machines, and spinning up a MRTG virtual machine - if you collect realtime traffic graphs, that might give you something to take back to TC.

2078 posts

Uber Geek


  #520795 14-Sep-2011 09:32
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BiDi: TC have contacted us regarding the problem.

They say that the web-site usage display of traffic can be highly inaccurate. For instance, where it shows 4 GB downloaded in less than one hour: they say that this is probably an aggregate of many hours traffic.


It always worries me when someone says the traffic was "probably" an aggregate of many hours traffic.

They should be able to say for certain if it was an aggregate or not!


 
 
 
 




62 posts

Master Geek


  #520799 14-Sep-2011 09:44
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Yes, I was surprised. I would have thought that they could do better. Apparently not.

I can't imagine what the reporting software would be doing that would make it so inaccurate. Can't the traffic information be time-stamped? Furthermore, if the metering is so poor, why suggest otherwise by plotting the data in bins one hour wide?

And, as I have already said, a cursory comparison between our known use at certain times and their report seemed to agree. But we now need to look closer at that.

2078 posts

Uber Geek


  #520809 14-Sep-2011 10:09
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BiDi: Yes, I was surprised. I would have thought that they could do better. Apparently not.

I can't imagine what the reporting software would be doing that would make it so inaccurate. Can't the traffic information be time-stamped? Furthermore, if the metering is so poor, why suggest otherwise by plotting the data in bins one hour wide?

And, as I have already said, a cursory comparison between our known use at certain times and their report seemed to agree. But we now need to look closer at that.


It's harder than you would think, typically traffic information is recorded from one of the routers in the network.  Companies that design routers think shifting packets (i.e. keeping your internet connection going) is more important than making accounting records.  If traffic is heavy the router will not have time to put out accounting records so when they do come out it will be covering a longer period than normal. 

The traffic volume information is not normally lost but it can build up.

I would prefer that all internet plans had unlimited usage and then the whole usage accounting infrastructure would not be needed, unfortunately though most networks have some serious bottlenecks so they need some way of getting people to share nicely.



62 posts

Master Geek


  #520817 14-Sep-2011 10:14
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graemeh: I would prefer that all internet plans had unlimited usage and then the whole usage accounting infrastructure would not be needed, unfortunately though most networks have some serious bottlenecks so they need some way of getting people to share nicely.


Yep, unlimited use would solve our problem.

Aren't unlimited-use domestic contracts common elsewhere in the world?  Where do the bottlenecks occur?

558 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  #520823 14-Sep-2011 10:22
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BiDi:
graemeh: I would prefer that all internet plans had unlimited usage and then the whole usage accounting infrastructure would not be needed, unfortunately though most networks have some serious bottlenecks so they need some way of getting people to share nicely.


Yep, unlimited use would solve our problem.

Aren't unlimited-use domestic contracts common elsewhere in the world?  Where do the bottlenecks occur?


There are ISP's in NZ that offer unlimited national use. The main reason that they stopped unlimited national was that most of what you think is in NZ is in fact overseas. At the moment the bottleneck is the Fiber linking us to the rest of the world this is charged to the ISP's at per data usage. With the new pacific fiber connection due to be completed in 2015(I think) should allow for unlimited Data(Fingers Crossed)




Geoff E


176 posts

Master Geek


  #520827 14-Sep-2011 10:25
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geocom: With the new pacific fiber connection due to be completed in 2015(I think) should allow for unlimited Data(Fingers Crossed)


Or at least some reasonable data caps and/or reasonable prices for our existing caps.

2469 posts

Uber Geek


  #520830 14-Sep-2011 10:30
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geocom: 
There are ISP's in NZ that offer unlimited national use. The main reason that they stopped unlimited national was that most of what you think is in NZ is in fact overseas. At the moment the bottleneck is the Fiber linking us to the rest of the world this is charged to the ISP's at per data usage. With the new pacific fiber connection due to be completed in 2015(I think) should allow for unlimited Data(Fingers Crossed)


Err, the bottleneck ISN'T southern cross, it's a) National/peering and b) ISPs not buying enough international/national bandwidth..


Also, ISP's aren't charged "per data usage". They buy pipes in Mbit's of bandwidth.. So an ISP might have ~100mbit national and 80mbit international and a 100mbit connect to APE/peering.. (As an example) 

 

2078 posts

Uber Geek


  #520832 14-Sep-2011 10:33
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BiDi:
graemeh: I would prefer that all internet plans had unlimited usage and then the whole usage accounting infrastructure would not be needed, unfortunately though most networks have some serious bottlenecks so they need some way of getting people to share nicely.


Yep, unlimited use would solve our problem.

Aren't unlimited-use domestic contracts common elsewhere in the world?  Where do the bottlenecks occur?


It was often in the backhaul from the DSLAM (the bit your ADSL modem connects to) in NZ.  So you'd get full speed to that point and then hit congestion.

Now that fibre goes as far as the cabinet the bottlenecks are probably at the edge of the ISPs network but that will depend on how the ISP is connected to the cabinet.

When we have fibre to the home I expect the bottlenecks may shift into the ISPs core network.

2078 posts

Uber Geek


  #520838 14-Sep-2011 10:36
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kyhwana2:
geocom: 
There are ISP's in NZ that offer unlimited national use. The main reason that they stopped unlimited national was that most of what you think is in NZ is in fact overseas. At the moment the bottleneck is the Fiber linking us to the rest of the world this is charged to the ISP's at per data usage. With the new pacific fiber connection due to be completed in 2015(I think) should allow for unlimited Data(Fingers Crossed)


Err, the bottleneck ISN'T southern cross, it's a) National/peering and b) ISPs not buying enough international/national bandwidth..


Also, ISP's aren't charged "per data usage". They buy pipes in Mbit's of bandwidth.. So an ISP might have ~100mbit national and 80mbit international and a 100mbit connect to APE/peering.. (As an example) 

 


+1

Now before someone says "Southern Cross is too expensive" remember that Southern Cross pricing is based on the Australian market pricing so don't expect the new cable to have much impact on the price.

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