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Topic # 130846 30-Sep-2013 13:43
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Hi Guys (and girls),

I have been asked to look at moving a buildings private lift phone to VOIP. The lift support company seems to suggest that "it will only work via a normal phone line" however what seems to be unbeknownst to them is that the lifts phone is currently running behind a PABX with some kind of auto dial function on ISDN for at least 10 years.

Taking a basic stab, maybe just using a normal ATA that has an autodial feature would work ?

Totally open to advice on what should be done/used in this situation )?

Cheers
Lee

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  Reply # 905097 30-Sep-2013 13:44
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My advice: Don't Do It.  What if it fails to work when someone is stuck in the elevator?




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  Reply # 905101 30-Sep-2013 13:47
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ubergeeknz: My advice: Don't Do It.  What if it fails to work when someone is stuck in the elevator?



That was along the lines of my initial reaction too. The problem is that I think it has already or that expect it to fail soon in its current form.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 905104 30-Sep-2013 13:57
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Well, an ATA should do it in theory, but it depends.  If it's a modem then "good luck" getting it to work.  What's to stop you getting a POTS line installed for the lift?

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  Reply # 905105 30-Sep-2013 13:57
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How are you going to connect it to your network or PBX? How will it be powered? As a safety item, reliability is paramount, imo.



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  Reply # 905127 30-Sep-2013 14:06
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ubergeeknz: Well, an ATA should do it in theory, but it depends.  If it's a modem then "good luck" getting it to work.  What's to stop you getting a POTS line installed for the lift?


A POTS line to the lift is the basic position to return to. I don't *think* its a modem due to it being pushed across the ISDN based PABX at the moment.

If you like I am just interested in confirming a more modern solution. The two lift companies I have spoken with so far just say that phone lines are "known and traditional technology", to which I totally agree. I just cant see the only use for POTS in the coming years being in lifts ;-D




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  Reply # 905130 30-Sep-2013 14:08
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sampler:
ubergeeknz: Well, an ATA should do it in theory, but it depends.  If it's a modem then "good luck" getting it to work.  What's to stop you getting a POTS line installed for the lift?


A POTS line to the lift is the basic position to return to. I don't *think* its a modem due to it being pushed across the ISDN based PABX at the moment.

If you like I am just interested in confirming a more modern solution. The two lift companies I have spoken with so far just say that phone lines are "known and traditional technology", to which I totally agree. I just cant see the only use for POTS in the coming years being in lifts ;-D 


Modems work just fine over PABXs with ISDN connectivity.  It's only when you get VoIP involved that you start to have problems.

The modern solution is a lift designed to work over IP :)



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  Reply # 905132 30-Sep-2013 14:12
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Inphinity: How are you going to connect it to your network or PBX? How will it be powered? As a safety item, reliability is paramount, imo.


Im not at the moment, its most of a general question. 

Working through the concept for this particular company, I would assume that they would work through their existing fiber/dsl/3g internet connections that include backup power etc.

Cheers

Lee



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  Reply # 905134 30-Sep-2013 14:16
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The modern solution is a lift designed to work over IP :)


Quick lets make a "lift app" .... you use your phone to open/close the door and select the floor etc ... That's out idea we will make billions!

While are are both coding this new app, Ill ask more about the device connecting to the outside world from the lift. if its a modem then POTS it is.

Cheers

Lee

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  Reply # 905138 30-Sep-2013 14:22
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sampler:
The modern solution is a lift designed to work over IP :)


Quick lets make a "lift app" .... you use your phone to open/close the door and select the floor etc ... That's out idea we will make billions!

While are are both coding this new app, Ill ask more about the device connecting to the outside world from the lift. if its a modem then POTS it is.

Cheers

Lee


That would be awesome, if you could let the lift know you were likely to be leaving soon, it could come close to your floor (assuming it's not busy)... maybe only available to VIP staff members ;)

My idea, I'm sure this is already being done, is a regenerative lift, which can feed power back into other systems in the building - along with some system that encourages going up stairs and catching the lift down (eg. 50c to ride the lift up, free to ride the lift down)

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  Reply # 905143 30-Sep-2013 14:27
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There are at least 30 lifts connected to the phone system I look after and all of them are supplied with analog lines from an analog gateway (higher density - 24 to 48 ports, and possibly more reliable than an ATA). None of the lifts I know of have modems in them, all they do is go off hook and either dial the lift company or expect the phone line to hotline to the lift company.

Had a few problems with one very old lift that didn't like the lower on hook voltage from one of our analog gateways (only about 30 volts) but found a newer gateway allowed us to set the onhook voltage.

In all cases these dial the lift company who can then talk to people in the lift and arrange help. A few of the lifts seem to go off hook occasionally to check the phone line is still connected - some of the newer talking elevators will give an additional message saying "the emergency phone line is not configured, please contact the building management".

Overall it seems to work pretty well. The alarm button that calls the lift company usually also rings a bell on the outside of the building letting people know someone is in the lift calling for help.

all in my own personal experience of course :)

/ben


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  Reply # 905147 30-Sep-2013 14:32
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ubergeeknz:
sampler:
The modern solution is a lift designed to work over IP :)


Quick lets make a "lift app" .... you use your phone to open/close the door and select the floor etc ... That's out idea we will make billions!

While are are both coding this new app, Ill ask more about the device connecting to the outside world from the lift. if its a modem then POTS it is.

Cheers

Lee


That would be awesome, if you could let the lift know you were likely to be leaving soon, it could come close to your floor (assuming it's not busy)... maybe only available to VIP staff members ;)

My idea, I'm sure this is already being done, is a regenerative lift, which can feed power back into other systems in the building - along with some system that encourages going up stairs and catching the lift down (eg. 50c to ride the lift up, free to ride the lift down)


There was a thread on Reddit not to long ago about an American apartment complex owner who decided to start charging for using the lift. First 60 uses were free than it was $35 per month. The Reddit police went on a crusade to shame the fella and rep justice as usual. General consensus was its our right to be lazy! Good read though 

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  Reply # 905178 30-Sep-2013 15:21
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There is no technical issue preventing this from happening. A standard Cisco ATA will work fine regardless of whether it dials out or required a hotdial to be set.

The only issue is one of reliability. A POTS line will have as close to 100% uptime as you can realistically get. What will the uptime of your ATA and internet connection be? Will you have a UPS etc to guarantee that a power cut which will trap people in a lift won't take out your internet and ATA?


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  Reply # 905181 30-Sep-2013 15:23
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ubergeeknz:
My idea, I'm sure this is already being done, is a regenerative lift, which can feed power back into other systems in the building - along with some system that encourages going up stairs and catching the lift down (eg. 50c to ride the lift up, free to ride the lift down)


The only problem with that  once everyone is ingrained into walking up the stairs, the lifts then have to ride up empty to collect all the freeloaders who are using them to come down, :), 




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  Reply # 905188 30-Sep-2013 15:34
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sbiddle: There is no technical issue preventing this from happening. A standard Cisco ATA will work fine regardless of whether it dials out or required a hotdial to be set.

The only issue is one of reliability. A POTS line will have as close to 100% uptime as you can realistically get. What will the uptime of your ATA and internet connection be? Will you have a UPS etc to guarantee that a power cut which will trap people in a lift won't take out your internet and ATA?



For the particular situation that spawned the question, it would be the same power feed as they currently have to the currently connected ISDN based PBX(includes 60kVA APC UPS and generator).

the ISDN lines or PABX has failed in 6-8 ways in the last 3 years. With the redundant internet connections in place they have never lost outside world connectivity totally in the last ~7 years.

Assuming the equipment is fine in one way or another I guess attention would need to turn to the VOIP provider ? Hows the Geni/Telecom offerings ?

Cheers

Lee










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  Reply # 905216 30-Sep-2013 16:16
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sbiddle: There is no technical issue preventing this from happening. A standard Cisco ATA will work fine regardless of whether it dials out or required a hotdial to be set.

The only issue is one of reliability. A POTS line will have as close to 100% uptime as you can realistically get. What will the uptime of your ATA and internet connection be? Will you have a UPS etc to guarantee that a power cut which will trap people in a lift won't take out your internet and ATA?



Don't forget durability as well.

Those POTS lines are connected to the legacy Post Office network that Telecom inherited as part of privatisation, and the network and equipment is on the whole built like a Nokia 3310; the darn things just keep on running. I accept they are all obsolete and quite mature, but they just keep on ticking - meaning most lift operators can defer indefinitely the day lifts will need upgrading with new equipment.

What's the economic life expectancy of an ATA and a UPS I wonder, given the critical need for safety in a lift?




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