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  Reply # 73477 5-Jun-2007 17:57
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Do you want to post the relevant part from your local interconnection agreement Mark , that states you can't assign numbers outside the geographical region

The service Category part covers this however loosely written as well as local interconnect agreements with Telecom , you will have absolutely no geopgraphical structure if we subscribe to any number anywhere, as much as I would personally like it, this is a follow on to our discussions the other day.

7.1. Service Category
7.1.1. Geographic Service Code Blocks are allocated for the provision of
services with a geographic structure,




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  Reply # 73551 5-Jun-2007 23:06
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I don't personally have an interconnection agreement with Telecom, but the standard template is here.
http://www.telecom.co.nz/binarys/ica1.pdf


..and it does bleat on about the "Originating End User Building" and the "Terminating End User Building" having to be in the same Local Interconnect Calling Area for it to be an "Intra-LICA" call. But it doesn't state you can't assign numbers outside the geographical region. It just isn't an Intra-LICA call anymore if you do.


It's the section on VOIP Calls (Schedule3.12) that goes beyond the pale. Telecom want to charge a carrier differently for calls that "might" have begun life on a SIP device somewhere in the world, before they get to Telecom. The service that Telecom is offering is transport of a call from an interconnect point to a local telephone (call termination). If the call was made from a SIP device in Canada, or a tin can in my backyard over a piece of wet string, as long as it is converted to a normal PSTN call before it is handed over to them for termination, then where it came from is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. It does not affect their call termination service they provide nor the cost of it.

And the NAD's mention of "geographical structure" does not mean you can't put a local PSTN number on a SIP device in Canada. There can be a "logical" or "conceptual" geographic structure and/or a "physical" geographic structure. For most, the concept of a local call is that you dial 7 digits and you get charged a local call charge (ie free for residential).
 
If a consumer dialled a 7 digit local number and they were charged 15c/min because the other end was actually in Canada, they'd be rightly pissed off. But as long as a caller can have piece of mind that when the dial a 7 digit local number, they know that they will be charged only a local call charge, then a "logical" geographic structure has been preserved, regardless of where the call is physically terminated. 

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  Reply # 73554 6-Jun-2007 00:05
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Funny seeing you here Mark.

As geographic structure is not defined in the deed this is rather cloudy, thats how I came to my conclusion the other day anyhow which seems to be how Phil has interpereted it also.

Tim

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  Reply # 73556 6-Jun-2007 06:47
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If a consumer dialled a 7 digit local number and they were charged 15c/min because the other end was actually in Canada, they'd be rightly pissed off. But as long as a caller can have piece of mind that when the dial a 7 digit local number, they know that they will be charged only a local call charge, then a "logical" geographic structure has been preserved, regardless of where the call is physically terminated. 


As logical as it may seem this is the sticking point. The definition of a customer termination point is very clear - it needs to be inside the phyical premises that the "line" is terminated at. If you move your VoIP phone outside your house the call is no longer originating or terminating inside those premises.

It's also the same issue that may have been a significant factor in the Vodafone vs TCL's debate which lead to the demise of their Tauranga Unplugged network. TCL wanted to allocate an 07 number to a mobile and let that mobile phone roam outside of the Tauranga area still using that 07 number. Vodafone said "sorry no can do" and the rest is history.

I have to agree with Phil's interpretation of the existing interconnection law. I also agree that these are completely outdated and need to be upgraded because they were obviously never designed to factor VoIP stuff into it.

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  Reply # 73582 6-Jun-2007 09:47
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I think its important to note that there IS NO LAW on Interconnection (other than that around ported numbers). It's whatever a given carrier has commercially negotiated with Telecom. So no two interconnect agreements are the same, and there is no standard "definition of a customer termination point". 

Commercially negotiated agreements are forever changing and the standard Term of them is only 12 months. So the time to debate and update the definitions within an ICA with Telecom so that it handles innovative and customer driven VoIP services is NOW.

Also, the standard reference for Interconnection with Telecom is one that comes out of the Telecom Legal department. Perhaps "the industry" should produce its own ICA that takes greater consideration of customer need and future and current innovation. That would at least send a strong message to Telecom and would be a great show of solidarity.


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  Reply # 73601 6-Jun-2007 11:20
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at present Telecom has literally 1000's of business  FES lines (foreign exchange service) where the customer pays to lease a cct from one area to the other to trunk numbers to other toll areas for a host of different reasons. Allow out of area number termination via voip would cost millions  of lost revenue. As long as big players have a vested interest I doubt if the rules will change. When Telecom has voip transportation readily available no doubt the rules will change. Before everyone jumps omn me i am just trying to think out of the norm as I doubt if we have all thought of the implications. Cheers George

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  Reply # 73604 6-Jun-2007 11:31
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GEOMAX: ...Allow out of area number termination via voip would cost millions  of lost revenue.

My heart bleeds Tongue out 

VoIP is a disruptive technology which is all about overturning cosy little cartels like this.  Every Kiwi business -- and indirectly every Kiwi consumer -- is paying to protect Telecom's monopoly in this and other areas but not for much longer Cool

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  Reply # 73607 6-Jun-2007 11:41
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mfrater:
Perhaps "the industry" should produce its own ICA that takes greater consideration of customer need and future and current innovation. That would at least send a strong message to Telecom and would be a great show of solidarity.



Another job for TCF?

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Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 73651 6-Jun-2007 15:49
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For the record, I was at a US east coast university (Penn State) this last semester -- and will be next semester with an 04 number -- and things worked reasonably with the supplied softphone. Call quality was a bit crumbly I presumed because of the delay back to Slingshot's SIP servers in Auckland. (For the record, I kept my Wellington billing address.) The problem was alleviated by just talking slower than usual in case the connection was bad and realising I could get up to a third of a second delay. Oddly, I tended to get far better reception on SIP when at establishments around town (State College, PA) that had wifi.

The biggest problem were idiot drunk people being happy at parties calling me for a taxi; I have a number eerily similar to Wellington Combined (no prizes for guessing what mine is). Usually this was at times where I'd be well asleep at early AM, Eastern Time. If they were too drunk to tell them I wasn't the taxi people, I usually waited about 10 minutes and then called back and told them the taxi wasn't ever coming... Undecided

Any other informal quality reports with other VoIP providers? Anyone out there able to/wanting to port my number over? If the money's right, I wouldn't mind trying out some others.

J

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  Reply # 74807 15-Jun-2007 14:45
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Also, sidepoint Mark!=Matt

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  Reply # 74845 15-Jun-2007 18:12
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The fact that Skype are now offering NZ numbers to anyone and everyone surely indicates physical location isn't an issue to offering NZ numbers.




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  Reply # 74846 15-Jun-2007 18:19
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paulspain: The fact that Skype are now offering NZ numbers to anyone and everyone surely indicates physical location isn't an issue to offering NZ numbers.


We are taking that very issue up right now and yes it is a big issue, Skype are actually using resold numbers form another carrier




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  Reply # 74865 15-Jun-2007 21:07
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What about the 50X XXXX number range? This is a nationwide non geographic range that can be called using any area code (03,04,06,07,09). What's to stop you from assigning international customers 506 6XXX numbers from the 5066 range you've got reserved on the NAD Phil?

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Reply # 74952 17-Jun-2007 18:37
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jagdees: check [url spam removed]. It is prepaid you can use it as long as you like. Use your existing voip devices to route/receive calls.
paul


/me wonders if that's Tex's new venture Cool

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  Reply # 74958 17-Jun-2007 20:06
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I can't open any sections of [url spam removed] . It looks like it is still under construction. How  are you reading  site information?

cheers George

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