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18 posts

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# 36648 29-Jun-2009 20:33
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Hi Guys
I have my PAP2T working great through the SIP gateway at Kiwilink. However now Recon aren't hearing from my alarm any more.  The alarm system (a paradox spectra) was dialing out fine on the pots line before I changed to the PAP2T - does anyone know the setting I need to change on the PAP2T to get my alarm to communicate with Recon again?  Its dialing out fine on the PAP2T and Recon is answering so it must be a protocol issue?
Cheers
Mike

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  # 229414 30-Jun-2009 03:38
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Alarms over VoIP can be difficult.

First off there are several different alarm protocols. If your alarm uses ContactID (probably the most common) you are OK as this uses DTMF tones. Most alarms that doesn't use ContactID use a modem - these will not work over VoIP and I'm not actually sure if the Paradox alarms do use ContactID.

If you do have ContactID Ideally you need to be using ulaw and DTMF inband. Unless you have a rock solid internet connection you will struggle to get this working correctly. G.729 and RFC2833 may work on a good connection but here are no guarantees.

The simplest solution is to move to an alarm monitoring company who do IP monitoring (such as AlarmNZ) and buy one of their IP adapters that do ContactID over IP. Moving however is not always a practical solution or possible. It is the preferred method however and will guarantee 100% success, no VoIP option will do this.


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  # 229468 30-Jun-2009 10:12
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I tried for a long time with WorldXChange to get the Spectra and a PAP2T working.  I couldn't get it to work.

The DTMF sounded like it was being sent correctly, however the alarm company wasn't responding properly.

I eventually gave up and got an analog line installed just for the alarm.  I found that the additional equipment for an IP alarm, plus the higher fees the monitoring company charged, outweighed the cost of the phone line.

$800+dollars of equipment pays for a lot of monthly line rentals.




 
 
 
 




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  # 229477 30-Jun-2009 10:27
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Thanks for your posts.  I will continue to look into the matter and see how I get on.  I will post any solutions I find.  Cheers

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  # 229733 30-Jun-2009 23:25
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jpollock: I tried for a long time with WorldXChange to get the Spectra and a PAP2T working.  I couldn't get it to work.

The DTMF sounded like it was being sent correctly, however the alarm company wasn't responding properly.

I eventually gave up and got an analog line installed just for the alarm.  I found that the additional equipment for an IP alarm, plus the higher fees the monitoring company charged, outweighed the cost of the phone line.

$800+dollars of equipment pays for a lot of monthly line rentals.


From memory AlarmNZ sell their ContactID over IP for a couple of hundred. Obviously if you know nothing about alarms a DIY install is not an option.


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  # 229829 1-Jul-2009 10:25
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@glasairnz

Mike, I had the same issues as you. In the end, I have just about given up on my existing monitoring company and I am now investigating the IP Alarm Server option at AlarmNZ. This looks like a drop in replacement for the PAP2T (or the SPA3102 which I use), and the monthly costs for their basic domestic monitoring service is similar to other providers. There is no reason to expect that the IP Alarm Server device will not be cheaper than the PAP2T, so that might just have to be offset as part of the cost of getting a monitoring service that works i.e. you might end up with a spare PAP2T!

The main stream alarm companies have not been watching the market in respect of technology for sure, just what they plan to do when Telecom goes VOIP is anyone's guess. My current monitoring company recently installed a new receiver panel, but even that does not support analog dialers calling over VOIP connections.

Cheers Mike



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  # 229944 1-Jul-2009 14:09
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Thank you all for feedback - I am nearly at a solution that will involve my existing PAP2T for VOIP and an Alarm Server Module (small box that does cool stuff) for $199+GST from AlarmNZ.  I will post more detail when the gear turns up and once I have installed and tested it.  Cheers

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  # 229961 1-Jul-2009 15:07
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Yes, that is the module and provider that I inquired about today. Looks like a better option by far.

Cheers Mike

 
 
 
 


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  # 236537 17-Jul-2009 19:33
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I can pretty much guarantee that G.729 will not work on some alarms, try G.711 instead. If still not working (or if you want it to survive an internet outage) then ask your ADSL provider to enable phone service on the same line, ADSL + phone shouldnt cost much more since part of line rental is included in the naked ADSL price. Your ATA might have a handy FXO link for emergency calls too, which might be another advantage.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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  # 237188 20-Jul-2009 16:05
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Have a look at http://www.ssn.co.nz. They accept the normal contact ID notification on an 0800 number and send you an SMS message. So you can save on alarm monitoring.  There is also an optional Patrol service that you choose whether to invoke. Reports are that this sevice works really well over VoIP.

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  # 237325 20-Jul-2009 23:39
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saltydog: Have a look at http://www.ssn.co.nz. They accept the normal contact ID notification on an 0800 number and send you an SMS message. So you can save on alarm monitoring.  There is also an optional Patrol service that you choose whether to invoke. Reports are that this sevice works really well over VoIP.


Dialling an 0800 number still requires a VoIP call over the PSTN. No matter what alarm company you go with (SSN included) you will run into the same issues with performance.

Contact ID over VoIP can work - however it's not 100% perfect and over most ADSL connections it never will work really well. Alarms need to be 100% reliable.


The best option is by far an ethernet module for IP monitoring with a alarm monitoring company that offers the service or a cellular module that will work with any alarm company.




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  # 237357 21-Jul-2009 09:03
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When I tried this a couple of years ago, with me on TCL Cable and WorldXChange, we tried:

G729 with out-of-band DTMF
G729 with inband DTMF
G711 with out-of-band DTMF
G711 with inband DTMF

Everything both u-law and a-law.

None of it worked.  I sat there with tcpdump and watched the traces go by too...  It looked correct, so the problem was somewhere upstream. 

I couldn't find any way to increase the inter-digit and digit-hold times (thus slowing down the dtmf on the Paradox), which might have solved the problem.  The digits were going past faster than you hear when a phone redials...  Substantially faster.

I also get the feeling that the alarm companies systems are very intolerant of anything that isn't perfect, and any sort of jitter in the network will invalidate the update attempt.

When I went looking for an IP module, in order to be elligible for the insurance discount, it needed to have battery backup for both an ADSL modem and the module.  They couldn't (or wouldn't) work with TCL's cable modem.

Additionally, they wanted it to be _their_ ADSL modem that was the router connected to the Internet connection, which was very "WTF"?

Now, this was a couple of years ago, so it might have changed since.




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  # 237439 21-Jul-2009 12:51
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It's most likely go more to do with the modem tones getting distorted that anything else. I seem to remember on Orcon's website saying that if you wanted to use a Sky STB that naked DSL was no good and you would have to use a one of their homelines.




Regards,

Old3eyes


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  # 237460 21-Jul-2009 13:19
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old3eyes: It's most likely go more to do with the modem tones getting distorted that anything else. I seem to remember on Orcon's website saying that if you wanted to use a Sky STB that naked DSL was no good and you would have to use a one of their homelines.


Contact ID is DTMF based. The problem appears to primarily be the duration and length of the DTMF tones being too fast for many devices to cope with.

Many alarms use Contact ID however many larger alarm systems use modem based diallers which simply won't work at all.



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  # 237593 21-Jul-2009 17:30
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ok I have everything working and I promised you an update.

Here is what I had:
- saturn cable internet $45/month
- telstra residential phone line $45/month
- alarm system dialling out on telstra residential phone line
- alarm system monitored by Recon

What I wanted to achieve:
- save some money per month by dumping my analogue residential phone line
- not suffer call quality issues as a result
- caller line ID, voicemail and everything else must still work
- have my monitored alarm still working
- have all of the phone outlets in the house still working with all of the current phone handsets

Here is what I ended up with:
- saturn cable internet $45/month
- voip phone line (preserving the same residential phone number) with KiwiLink (www.kiwilink.co.nz) $11.25/month
- telstra phone line disconnected - saving $45/month
- alarm system connected to a contactID IP adapter supplied for $199+GST by www.alarmnz.com
- alarm system dialling out to Adapter then adapter pushes the data out over the internet to a static IP address at www.alarmnz.com
- adapter monitored over the internet by AlarmNZ (www.alarmnz.com)
- separate patrol contract to allow alarmnz to dispatch a patrol when necessary (alarmnz took care of this)
- cancelled subscription with Recon

Here is how I did it:

Alarm System:
- buy the IP adapter from AlarmNZ $199+GST
- figure out where the tip and ring connections are on the alarm panel - disconnect from the phone line and connect to the new IP adapter box (wires can be either way around as there is no polarity)
- run 12v from the alarm panel to the IP adapter
- feel free to pull the IP adapter PCB out of its own box and mount inside the alarm panel for more security if you wish (I didn't bother)
- connect the IP adapter RJ45 port to your network to give it access to the internet
- nothing to configure as alarmnz preconfigure it before they ship it to you

VOIP
- call kiwilink.co.nz and sign up for their $11.25 plan - they port the residential phone number over for you.  It takes 5 working days.
- buy a linksys pap2t voip unit - you can get them new for between $80-$99+GST
- cut the residential phone cabling to your current home phone wiring at the demarc point outside your house (I had a professional cabling company do this for safety - in Wgtn call Online Comms at 04-477-0000 they will come out and do it for approx $100+GST)
- connect the pap2t to the internal phone wiring which gives all handsets in your house dial tone again - make sure you don't overload the pap2t by connecting a whole bunch of old phones to it.  Only connect modern phones - I have 5 modern phones connected without problems (and they all ring)
- connect the pap2t to the internet
- get kiwilink.co.nz to help you configure the pap2t - kiwilink are fantastic
- do all of this on the 5th working day after signing up with kiwilink so that you are not waiting too long for the cutover without a phone


Here are some of the unique advantages:
- the alarm dialout is now very reliable as you are not relying on smashed up DTMF tones trying to force their way through codecs that weren't designed to handle them
- phone voicemail now emails a .wav file to your inbox and you can clear it from your phone too
- you can interregate the pap2t adapter in your web browser and get some really interesting call info
- you can interregate the alarm IP adapter in your web browser and get some really interesting alarm monitoring info


Footnotes:
- Recon are about to announce their service to achieve what I have done with alarmnz - it sounds like it is a few months away yet and may be a bit more expensive
- naked DSL is not required in the above scenario as I have saturn cable - BIG PROBLEM if you don't have Saturn Cable as naked DSL is twice the price of Saturn Cable and completely NEGATES the cost benefit of this entire process - so get a Saturn Cable internet if you can and you will be fine
- without Saturn Cable there is no other way to complete a project that will have you paying $45+$11.25=$56.25/month for the whole thing - if someone else knows how then please post
- softphone - buy a software and put it on your laptop - setup the "one ring one number" feature on the kiwilink web site and have your home phone number ringing concurrently on your laptop
- free 028 number from kiwilink.  The pap2t can handle 2 phone lines/numbers.  Grab a free 028 number (by free I mean no monthly fees) and add that as line 2 on the pap2t - add that as line 2 on your softphone - very trendy to have a 028 number to talk about at BBQ's
- don't get the Xlite softphone it is rubbish and won't do DTMF tones in New Zealand
- get the soft phone from http://www.nch.com.au/talk/be.html its called Express Talk - not pretty to look at but its VERY nice

Enjoy!
Cheers

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  # 237630 21-Jul-2009 19:03
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sbiddle:
old3eyes: It's most likely go more to do with the modem tones getting distorted that anything else. I seem to remember on Orcon's website saying that if you wanted to use a Sky STB that naked DSL was no good and you would have to use a one of their homelines.


Contact ID is DTMF based. The problem appears to primarily be the duration and length of the DTMF tones being too fast for many devices to cope with.

Many alarms use Contact ID however many larger alarm systems use modem based diallers which simply won't work at all.


I've seen this problem with analog voicemail integration and some IVR systems.  If you can increase the DTMF "on"  duration to 100ms that usually fixes the problem..





Regards,

Old3eyes


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