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maverick
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  #437256 9-Feb-2011 13:28
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DonGould:
sbiddle:  Configuration and provisioning of these devices is something best done by the VoIP provider, IMHO there should be no reason for an end user to need to touch anything in the device.


Nothing else in the industry works that way.

Fax I use on the Telecom or TelstraClear network that comes from HN isn't preporvisioned by Telecom.  It's provisioned by the manufacture per the spec that's agreed for use in .nz and just works. 

I just put in some basic ident info and make a few config choices, but it will basically function after I just plug it in.

That's how simply this tech needs to be.


sbiddle: If you're interested in provisoning all the documentation and SPC compiler tools are available online, but unless you have a good understanding of VoIP you're not going to get far with this. It's certainly not something that's aimed at the average consumer, it's something aimed at VoIP providers.


Sorry, to many TLAs from both of you, SPC?

D


Actually it does in a way, as what you are doing is moving active electronics to the premises, basically a mini PABX, this is not like a copper connection and needs to be treated as such, now I'm sure you won't let the customer have at a PABX would you and expect them to be able to configure it, you leave it to trained staff.

In this NGN world the tech will not be simple, as much as you would like it to be it can't, also remember that we have to offer equivalency of service as we are replacing the PSTN here and to do that you need a number of parameter options within the CPE and have done all the interop testing, you may only want a couple of options but as Service providers we need to be able to offer and support all these different services.

This is why we have the model we do, so user don't need to worry, same for our dealers, our dealers probably have more Hair as they should only need to install devices and not worry about provisioning and controlling configs that's our responsibility and really so it should, imagine 500 dealers all doing different SIP configs 

 




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DonGould

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  #437267 9-Feb-2011 13:51
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freitasm: What are you saying? You have a finite resource (bandwidth) and you are not worried if parts of your network are being used by a chatty protocol unnecessarily?


No.  Very few people care at all about chatty protocols in the network.  More often than not we just upgrade everything to deal with it.

It's the same as a simple Word document getting to 2mb just for 3 words. 

I used to worry about that sort of stuff.  But I got beaten into submission on it a long time ago now.

I no longer care about that stuff.  I'm focused on just pushing out faster computers and data links.

freitasm:Wow. Reading from your other posts about rural broadband it seems you treat bandwidth like a limitless low cost commodity. It's not.


Rubbish.   I can buy switches now that will push a gig 100m over copper that costs 30c a meter, and can daisy chain the dam things.

So that's $30 + $160 for managed layer 2 kit plus a couple of RJ45 plug - 50 cents each. per 100m.

$2000/km for a gig with drops every 100m.

For less than $400 I can push 100mbit 2kim.

So that's $2000/km as well if you can get the freq space (which in rural New Zealand where no one's using most of the space you really can if you actually wanted to.

18 months time once Moores law has had another bite at things, we'll be pushing 2Gbit for that same price.

With fibre it's getting even sillier again with the cost of transmission dropping even faster by my observation.  We've gone from 10 to 100 to 1000mbit in that space faster and at lower cost.

Getting excited about saving every 1 and 0 is just silly thinking, as I said, I used to think that way but have long since been shown the light.

D




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DonGould

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  #437268 9-Feb-2011 13:53
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maverick:  imagine 500 dealers all doing different SIP configs  


Ok I agree!

Hence why I find it so annoying that I can't just download a config file for these silly boxes, change the user and password and then upload it to the next box.

I notice the Cisco rep doesn't pay attention to this forum or he might have been here months ago better representing his product.

D




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sbiddle
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  #437277 9-Feb-2011 14:04
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DonGould:
sbiddle: I suggst you read the provisioning manuals for theese devices if you're having trouble.


Cool.  If the Cisco rep is on list perhaps you'd like to provide a link to the manual that Steve is suggesting I read.



Why should Cisco repond? Try looking on the Cisco site, or simply Googling "Linksys SPA provisioning"

I'm also not sure if you're reading my posts were I talk about HTTP, FTP or TFTP provisiooning. There is no provision to download configs because it's not needed, if you want multiple devices with the same config you use the auto provisoning. Uploading config devices would be nothing but a PITA.


maverick
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  #437282 9-Feb-2011 14:07
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DonGould:
maverick: Yes but how will your fax work, T38 what fall back codec is supported  and what type of detection do you use, this will depend on the gateways being used by the Service provider, do you have Echo can on or off, does the ATA give you that option etc...


Dude... www.telepermit.co.nz - it's a set of .nz standards we've been using in .nz for over 2 decades now.

Everyone should be configuring their gear and providing config info so I can just plug basic POTS stuff in.

maverick:  yes I am throwing a lot at you Dan but seriously this is what is involved with deploying a creditable VOIP offering


Ok, we really have to bring change in that space...  I should be able to deliver a credible VoIP offering to my pa using a $50 ATA over his dsl link without this much hassle!  This is a bit bonkers....  :) 

But keep throwing and perhaps tell your sales guys they need to lift their game and ring be or all your effort is going to go in 2Talks direct.

maverick:  You don't but what about the customer that does since you want to deploy these to custys ?


They can ring you and pay more or just stick with Telecom who provide the service on their mobile network? ;)

See my point...  I'm interested in just sorting the area that want a simple low cost service first.

maverick: yes eg you send a Subscribe for VM indication, iit's not supported by the softswitch so it replys with unsupported, now your box can just keep hammering away and the softswitch just keeps replying, you don't see the messaging or even bother looking for it but it's there chattering away, fine for one device maybe, but you deploy 100 or 1000 of them and then we have crap SIP messaging even though it is a valid message type but not for this feature activation , now that's our issue from a ITSP but it come back to poor deployment models, see where I'm going  



softswitch? ITSP? VM? Dude! 

Jump back to reality.  I'm running dozens of client systems all talking to services/hosts/servers.  Your's is just one of may applications I have chattering away on my network.  I really don't care.  I don't even care about spam.  It's all just data I'm selling my customers.

I do hear what you're trying to say.  When the noise gets out of hand I'll look at how we pull it back.  But like spam, it's just not worth my time to give it attention past the delete key.

D


Sorry Don, you are actually way of base here SIP itself does not have a one to one mapping for the local PTC331 Interconnect standards and Q931, they are completely different protocols and require protocol convertors to get hem back to SS7 network which is used for Telco interconnects, One is IP based one is TDM based and boy to get it working correctly takes a few thousand dollars and hours Money mouth

Not meaning to be rude here Don but these are common terms in the VOIP world, you are very vocal on your requirements but don't have a good back ground YET in the VOIP industry so some of your requirements seem to be more emotive than practical and ignoring best practices.

Soft-switch - This is what your devices talk to
SBC, Session border controller , otherwise know as a SIP firewall, protects your soft-switch
ITSP - Internet Telephone service provider
VM - Voicemail a common service supplied by used by a lot of ITSP's

As for your comments around not caring what is being sent out on the wire, you should these will be your customers and if things don't work the way they are supposed to, who are they going to call, my point is that if you leave the configurations of the common devices you do not have to worry about it. The ITSP has done the hard work for you, basically you are trying to reinvent the wheel when you don't have any expertise in the whole solution as of yet, I hope you get there but right now your knowledge of SIP and deployment models is a bit limited, I really am not trying to be rude here just trying to explain a side you may not be aware of.

As for 2Talk great to have them around it help drives the Technology and gives people choice, how they run there business is purely up to them and what they use to do it is is also no real concern of mine, we chose carrier grade network equipment for a reason ,they have a great guy Ray Jackson running an Asterisk box which offers great value fantastic that gives people options, What WxC and I try to champion is good practices pure and simple , bad deployment practices are just that ... Bad, there are some really badly deployed cowboy VOIP networks out there and that is not good for anyone so trying to educate people on what they should look out for and demand of their ITSP around better practices is a prime goal for me.







Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

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sbiddle
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  #437283 9-Feb-2011 14:08
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DonGould:I notice the Cisco rep doesn't pay attention to this forum or he might have been here months ago better representing his product.

D


Just FYI I'm also not aware of any "Cisco rep" on here either, certainly nobody from Cisco in NZ or Ingram Micro who are the primary distributors that I know contributes to Geekzone.


freitasm
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  #437284 9-Feb-2011 14:10
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DonGould:
freitasm: What are you saying? You have a finite resource (bandwidth) and you are not worried if parts of your network are being used by a chatty protocol unnecessarily?


No.  Very few people care at all about chatty protocols in the network.  More often than not we just upgrade everything to deal with it.

It's the same as a simple Word document getting to 2mb just for 3 words. 

I used to worry about that sort of stuff.  But I got beaten into submission on it a long time ago now.

I no longer care about that stuff.  I'm focused on just pushing out faster computers and data links.

Getting excited about saving every 1 and 0 is just silly thinking, as I said, I used to think that way but have long since been shown the light.


We come from different worlds, I see...  




 

 

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DonGould

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  #437291 9-Feb-2011 14:18
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sbiddle: Why should Cisco repond? Try looking on the Cisco site, or simply Googling "Linksys SPA provisioning"


Same reason why the label company I was dealing with yesterday didn't just point me to their web site.

Xerox do this for my printers.  Why shouldn't Cisco provide a level of service?

I know my web site.  They know theirs.  They may the products.  If they want me to sell them then the least they could do is provide links to the relevant bits of their web site.

As for Google...  last two times I've tried using Google on cisco stuff I've ended at broken links.  Even the links on the 2Talk web site seem to end at broken links.

sbiddle:  I'm also not sure if you're reading my posts were I talk about HTTP, FTP or TFTP provisiooning. There is no provision to download configs because it's not needed, if you want multiple devices with the same config you use the auto provisoning. Uploading config devices would be nothing but a PITA.


Yes I did read those posts.  What I don't understand is how I get the config files on my web server in the first place and how to auto provision the ATAs to suck up the data.

I don't really want to have to log into the web interface, set auto prov yes, then have to enter 2 urls then have to know the mac so I can assign a user name and password...   it's getting silly!

What I want is a little tool where I have my preconfig, I just plug in my laptop and it throws it at the box and all I have to do is change the user and password.  That really shouldn't be to much to ask.

The firmware update isn't to far from that, I'd just like something that will do the firmware and user crap all at the same time... that would be being helpful.

D





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maverick
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  #437292 9-Feb-2011 14:19
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Just as an example for consumer based mass market deployments, we deploy now for telecoms FTTH pilot the WRP400, big brother of the 2102 now there are several hundred of these deployed and all work exactly the same way have the same config (apart from the user details) the end customers have no idea what goes on behind the scenes they don't need to the Phones and Internet just work once plugged in, now we know for certain all features work as all the configs are the same , any issue identified can be found dealt with fixed and mass deployed and we as the Service provide take responsibility for that,

Why would you want to mess around with configs if it's already taken care of by the experts ? ,isn't it easier if you don't have to mess round with configs , backups etc.




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sbiddle
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  #437293 9-Feb-2011 14:22
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You "config" setup would be a total nightmare. What happens when you want to change a simple config? Are you going to visit 500 premises to update their SPA's?

Firmware is also managed by provisioning. If you read the provisioning file you'd be able to understand exactly how it works.

AndrewTD
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  #437346 9-Feb-2011 16:47
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Don,

I just read through this thread, and found it interesting, if a little frustrating reading.

To summarise, if I may, :-
1. You are learning how to use, configure and deploy ATAs for end users.
2. You have limited knowledge of VoIP and ATA / SIP device configuration, deployment and management.
3. You are frustrated with your current method of configuring the ATAs. 
4. You feel the process should have been easier, and perhaps more tellingly, that "others" should have made it easier for you.

Now the first three points/aspects are all reasonable / understandable. And as you no doubt realise, people here on GZ would be more than happy to help you improve your knowledge etc.

But the fourth point - your general assertion that others should make it easier for you - is where you start to dis-incline the good folk here from helping you.

I know both Steve Biddle and Maverick ( Phil) personally. I think they are both very, very  knowledgeable and helpful in this SIP / ITSP field. Steve is kind of a super-user kind of VoIP guy, and Phil runs the technical team of WxC - which I regard as the best and only "business-class" ITSP in NZ.

They have both been very restrained in my view in their responses to you. You do appear to be if not ignoring them, then pretty much wholeheartedly disagreeing with what they say. And that in my view is a mistake.

Your key point I think is that deploying ATAs should be a trivial and easily repeatable exercise.
If you were to resell WxC services, you would find that it absolutely is. They do all that for you, automatically. They configure, control and lock down all the necessary configuration parameters on the ATAs connected to their network. This in my view is a very good thing.

If you want to do it yourself, then take on board the very good advice that they have both already provided you, and get about learning how to configure the provisioning side of these things yourself. And stop complaining that Cisco isn't listening to you and not providing some magic black box to do it all for you!

(end of rant)

Having said all that - I do wish you all the best in getting more people happily using VoIP. 
First VoIP, then HD Voice :)




kind regards Andrew TD


DonGould

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  #437370 9-Feb-2011 18:29
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I see why Phil uses bold...  it's easier than sniping the quote tags isn't it....

AndrewTD: 4. You feel the process should have been easier, and perhaps more tellingly, that "others" should have made it easier for you.


Yes.  It's my view that as technology people we should always strive to make technology easier for others if we can.

Some people hold the view that we should make technology harder so as to prosper our vested interest.  Ie, if ATAs are hard to program then people will leave it all up to someone else and they will get all the work. 

Personally I don't like that approach because it limits the over all amount of work because many people don't leave it to others, they just don't do it at all.

VoIP is very much in that boat in the consumer market in Christchurch in my view.


AndrewTD:  But the fourth point - your general assertion that others should make it easier for you - is where you start to dis-incline the good folk here from helping you.


Actually no one ended up helping me with my original problem, I figured it out myself and reported back.

Following on from that I've outlined my frustrations with this technology in a public discussion forum. 

Had this exchange been via email with a supplier I may have tempered my responses just a little, or not. 

I think it's important to remember this is a discussion forum isn't it?


AndrewTD: I know both Steve Biddle and Maverick ( Phil) personally. I think they are both very, very  knowledgeable and helpful in this SIP / ITSP field. Steve is kind of a super-user kind of VoIP guy, and Phil runs the technical team of WxC - which I regard as the best and only "business-class" ITSP in NZ.


Yes.  And I hope that others reading this thread or finding it in the future will take note of the issues they've presented and consider the points they've raised when deciding if they do what I'm trying to do them selves or decide to just employ someone.

I hope they also note the comments made by the 2Talk tech guy and the comments made by the Cisco product manager and the comments that my Telstra rep made about using SIP technology on the TelstraClear HFC network in Christchurch.


AndrewTD:  They have both been very restrained in my view in their responses to you. You do appear to be if not ignoring them, then pretty much wholeheartedly disagreeing with what they say. And that in my view is a mistake.


I agree.  If I was ignoring them it would be a mistake. 


Your key point I think is that deploying ATAs should be a trivial and easily repeatable exercise.


Yes.  I agree.

It should be and it's not.  We have to change that in my view.

ADSL was bonkers to deploy when I started with it.  In my case it involved a tech being sent to my house that knew less about the technology than I did and took him hours. 

Now the technology has advanced to the point where the last modem I put in didn't even need a password.

If you were to resell WxC services,


Holly crap...  resell... so far I haven't even been able to figure out how to just buy a service for me to trial it! 

Did I really fail to make that point?


you would find that it absolutely is. They do all that for you, automatically. They configure, control and lock down all the necessary configuration parameters on the ATAs connected to their network.


Nice.

This in my view is a very good thing.


Ok, what I'm genning from all of this though is that if my customer wants to move from 2Talk to WxC then what? 

What if they want to move from WxC to 2Talk? 

What if they want to use the second port on their ATA to pick up a service from MyNetPhone(.com.au).

What I'm learning about WxC is that I'll have to do a hardware replacement.

I have no idea how to get my customer to WxC. 

I'm also seeing that I can't have one port of the ATA on 2Talk and one on WxC.


If you want to do it yourself, then take on board the very good advice that they have both already provided you, and get about learning how to configure the provisioning side of these things yourself.


Yes I'm seeing that setting up my own provisioning system for this stuff might be a good way to go. 


And stop complaining that Cisco isn't listening to you and not providing some magic black box to do it all for you!


Not a chance. 

How is Cisco going to keep on top of the game and keep delivering us top products if I just say nothing till I get sick of it and just quietly move to some other brand that has been listening to customers and is delivering something that people want?

How are the other providers going to know what people find frustrating with their competitors products so they can make better choices with theirs?

I've personally found, from a decade of bagging vendors on public forums, that stuff gets better and they make improvements faster!

D





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freitasm
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  #437377 9-Feb-2011 18:42
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DonGould: What if they want to use the second port on their ATA to pick up a service from MyNetPhone(.com.au).
 

Just ask WxC to unlock the second port. I have it unlocked on my router, my parents-in-law have it unlocked in their routers. We  both use MyNetPhone.

DonGould: What I'm learning about WxC is that I'll have to do a hardware replacement.


No, you don't need a hardware replacement.

DonGould: I'm also seeing that I can't have one port of the ATA on 2Talk and one on WxC.


You can. Back to my first reply in this post.






 

 

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DonGould

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  #437380 9-Feb-2011 18:44
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Oh, Andrew, I would just like to add a PS... thanks for taking the time to read the thread and venture your thoughts, and thanks to Steve and Phil for their 2 cents as well. :)




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DonGould

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  #437382 9-Feb-2011 18:47
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freitasm: We  both use MyNetPhone.


lol... I was tossing up to write PennyTel when I popped over to my WP screen to see what the popular voip providers names where.

D




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