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348 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1372352 23-Aug-2015 10:30
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gzt: You are confusing with a free service. Windows 10 Professional is USD$199.

Then you are trying to justify how windows is becoming like facebook? ; ).


Actually, Windows 10 professional is free currently. At least, as long as you already have Windows 7, 8 or 8.1 pro already.

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Ultimate Geek


  # 1372463 23-Aug-2015 12:59
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gzt: You are confusing with a free service. Windows 10 Professional is USD$199.

Then you are trying to justify how windows is becoming like facebook? ; ).


Not if you upgrade, then it's free. Which is many hours of coding, for no exchange of cash. Hence data as the payment. 




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  # 1372468 23-Aug-2015 13:06
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You believe the USD$199 (or OEM price) product is different? It is exactly the same product and that is what you will get when you buy or build a new machine.

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Ultimate Geek


  # 1372485 23-Aug-2015 14:16
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gzt: You believe the USD$199 (or OEM price) product is different? It is exactly the same product and that is what you will get when you buy or build a new machine.


Unless you have a windows 7, 8 or 8.1 pro licence already that you can transfer, and then upgrade. 



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  # 1372490 23-Aug-2015 14:51
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markl: 

I fail to see also why contextually targetted advertising is a bad thing too. You might be interested in tech stuff but not fashion, for example. If 90% of the ads you're served are for fashion items, then you're going to get annoyed, and you're never going to visit those advertisers, so everyone loses. If they can target ads to you that you find relevant, based on activities you (as identified by an anonymous id) perform, then surely that's better for everyone? Again, they are simply NOT going to keep tabs on EVERY SINGLE USER'S intimate details, so it's perfectly safe, and its something that only the paranoid would fear. 


It is a bad thing when you are given no choice. If I want to see advertising of any kind, I will go look for it. I do not accept that I should be served any ads uninvited, regardless of what they are about. The fact that you do means you have already been taken over by the corporate body-snatchers and are now parroting the company line. For my part, I will put my trust in the ad blockers. 








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348 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1372493 23-Aug-2015 15:01
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Rikkitic: It is a bad thing when you are given no choice. 


Absolutely, but that's what is so ridiculous about this whole thing - YOU DO HAVE A CHOICE

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  # 1372494 23-Aug-2015 15:06
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jim.cox:
I'm not paranoid.

I just do not think that serving up advertising is a necessary ( or wanted ) function of my computer's operating system.

And nor is the collection of data to allow such advertising to be targeted.

I agree with you Jim.  Seeing all those options where you permit MS to gather this & that data for whatever purpose was the one negative in my W10 upgrade experience, so I turned all of them off.  It's no business of an OS vendor to be collecting that sort of data and they should keep their noses out of it.

If you use Facebook or the web version of Gmail, that's the trade-off you make for a free service, which is fair enough as nobody can say they weren't warned.  With an OS it's a different matter because it's at a much lower level.  What will they think of next?  A BIOS which mines your data?  Maybe Intel already did that but didn't tell anybody...





 
 
 
 


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Ultimate Geek


  # 1372497 23-Aug-2015 15:13
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grant_k:
jim.cox:
I'm not paranoid.

I just do not think that serving up advertising is a necessary ( or wanted ) function of my computer's operating system.

And nor is the collection of data to allow such advertising to be targeted.

I agree with you Jim.  Seeing all those options where you permit MS to gather this & that data for whatever purpose was the one negative in my W10 upgrade experience, so I turned all of them off.  It's no business of an OS vendor to be collecting that sort of data and they should keep their noses out of it.

If you use Facebook or the web version of Gmail, that's the trade-off you make for a free service, which is fair enough as nobody can say they weren't warned.  With an OS it's a different matter because it's at a much lower level.  What will they think of next?  A BIOS which mines your data?  Maybe Intel already did that but didn't tell anybody...


This makes no sense! Why is it different? WHO wasn't warned? And what COLLECTION and MINING of your personal data do you actually think they're doing? Do you REALLY think they have thousands of analyss sitting there keeping tabs on every single user of Windows? Peering into their browser history, and reading all their emails, whilst taking notes, and using that information for nefarious purposes? No, that's NOT what happens. 

gzt

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  # 1372502 23-Aug-2015 15:29
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markl:
Rikkitic: It is a bad thing when you are given no choice. 


Absolutely, but that's what is so ridiculous about this whole thing - YOU DO HAVE A CHOICE

Wrong agsin and caps lock cannot change that. For example in diagnostic and usage data privacy option the user can choose high, medium, low. There is no 'Off'. There are many other examples where there really is no choice. There are many things which are tightly integrated.

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  # 1372507 23-Aug-2015 15:42
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markl:
grant_k:
jim.cox:
I'm not paranoid.

I just do not think that serving up advertising is a necessary ( or wanted ) function of my computer's operating system.

And nor is the collection of data to allow such advertising to be targeted.

I agree with you Jim.  Seeing all those options where you permit MS to gather this & that data for whatever purpose was the one negative in my W10 upgrade experience, so I turned all of them off.  It's no business of an OS vendor to be collecting that sort of data and they should keep their noses out of it.

If you use Facebook or the web version of Gmail, that's the trade-off you make for a free service, which is fair enough as nobody can say they weren't warned.  With an OS it's a different matter because it's at a much lower level.  What will they think of next?  A BIOS which mines your data?  Maybe Intel already did that but didn't tell anybody...


This makes no sense! Why is it different? WHO wasn't warned? And what COLLECTION and MINING of your personal data do you actually think they're doing? Do you REALLY think they have thousands of analyss sitting there keeping tabs on every single user of Windows? Peering into their browser history, and reading all their emails, whilst taking notes, and using that information for nefarious purposes? No, that's NOT what happens. 

Enough of the shouting Mark!  The question is not what MS do with the data.  It's the principle that they are collecting it which is the issue here.  As we all know, collected data is sometimes used for different purposes than those for which it was collected.  Or of course, it can be leaked, hacked, whatever.  Think Ashley Madison here...

It's this kind of invasive pushing of the privacy boundaries which has the potential to drive people towards Linux.  Actually, I know some people who have recently gone that way.  MS is treading a very fine line here between what is arguably their finest ever product, and turning people off in droves because they feel their rights have been violated.  Everyone who installs W10 has either paid for it directly with a new PC, or paid for it previously with 7 or 8.  They have paid money in the expectation of a similar deal to what they have had in the past, and to find the rules being changed surreptitiously is more than a little disconcerting.





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  # 1372511 23-Aug-2015 15:54
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I also have a major problem with a sudden drop in Microsofts transparency on what they are delivering you with every update. This whole thing is just really shady, and no I am not a person prone to paranonia as a cursory check of my other posts will clearly indicate. 

As for the option of choice I disagree about the choice, eventually (and I suspect it won't be that far away) they will do away with primary support of 7 and 8.1 and unless you want to switch to Mac, or Linux, you don't really have that choice.

I have a problem when a company makes a big change to the way they operate, especially when they become more focused on your data, less interested in being honest and transparent.

I would rather pay for my "upgrade" and have more transparency, clarity and less snooping.

418 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1372688 23-Aug-2015 20:45
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grant_k:
markl:
grant_k:
jim.cox:
I'm not paranoid.

I just do not think that serving up advertising is a necessary ( or wanted ) function of my computer's operating system.

And nor is the collection of data to allow such advertising to be targeted.

I agree with you Jim.  Seeing all those options where you permit MS to gather this & that data for whatever purpose was the one negative in my W10 upgrade experience, so I turned all of them off.  It's no business of an OS vendor to be collecting that sort of data and they should keep their noses out of it.

If you use Facebook or the web version of Gmail, that's the trade-off you make for a free service, which is fair enough as nobody can say they weren't warned.  With an OS it's a different matter because it's at a much lower level.  What will they think of next?  A BIOS which mines your data?  Maybe Intel already did that but didn't tell anybody...


This makes no sense! Why is it different? WHO wasn't warned? And what COLLECTION and MINING of your personal data do you actually think they're doing? Do you REALLY think they have thousands of analyss sitting there keeping tabs on every single user of Windows? Peering into their browser history, and reading all their emails, whilst taking notes, and using that information for nefarious purposes? No, that's NOT what happens. 

Enough of the shouting Mark!  The question is not what MS do with the data.  It's the principle that they are collecting it which is the issue here.  As we all know, collected data is sometimes used for different purposes than those for which it was collected.  Or of course, it can be leaked, hacked, whatever.  Think Ashley Madison here...

It's this kind of invasive pushing of the privacy boundaries which has the potential to drive people towards Linux.  Actually, I know some people who have recently gone that way.  MS is treading a very fine line here between what is arguably their finest ever product, and turning people off in droves because they feel their rights have been violated.  Everyone who installs W10 has either paid for it directly with a new PC, or paid for it previously with 7 or 8.  They have paid money in the expectation of a similar deal to what they have had in the past, and to find the rules being changed surreptitiously is more than a little disconcerting.
]


Hey well thats not right at all. You don't pay for thousands of hours of new coding, by having purchased a prior product. That's like paying for Dragon Age 1, and expecting to get DA 2 for free.

Those new substantive hours have to be paid for. For the free upgrades, thats paid for with data - thats the deal.

Microsoft advertising cortana based on her ability to learn from your user/useage, the advertising campaign, for w10, told us that completely upfront, months ago. Indeed it was obvious to me from the moment they said 'free upgrade' that it would be modelled like google's android, facebook etc. 

The question should be 'is the product worth it for me, am I getting value for access to my data'  IMO. In the case of facebook, I don't beleive it is - they are selling that info, for very targeted advertising to third parties for a butload of money, and where is the value for that profitable cost? At least google provides top notch indexing and algorythms, facebook just happens to be popular, not even the best designed social network. What about free cloud storage, e-mail, or some bonus services. Nope, just staid old facebook and them making billions.

Win10, at least they are giving you good value coding in exchange. For me, thats where peoples awareness should be changed. It's okay to pay with data. But data should never be given for 'free', when what is received in return is not worth it. Data has value. 

It would be nice if these companies all of them, gave us a cash option to opt out - and this is where it is slimy, they don't give us that because it would make the masses know how much data is worth. They don't want the public to know their data is valuable, and that means as people have said, with google, facebook, whoever, there is a lack of transparency. That IS concerning. If we are paying for something, its fair we know that, and how much what we ar paying is worth. 






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  # 1372691 23-Aug-2015 20:59
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Dreal:
grant_k:
markl:
grant_k:
jim.cox:
I'm not paranoid.

I just do not think that serving up advertising is a necessary ( or wanted ) function of my computer's operating system.

And nor is the collection of data to allow such advertising to be targeted.

I agree with you Jim.  Seeing all those options where you permit MS to gather this & that data for whatever purpose was the one negative in my W10 upgrade experience, so I turned all of them off.  It's no business of an OS vendor to be collecting that sort of data and they should keep their noses out of it.

If you use Facebook or the web version of Gmail, that's the trade-off you make for a free service, which is fair enough as nobody can say they weren't warned.  With an OS it's a different matter because it's at a much lower level.  What will they think of next?  A BIOS which mines your data?  Maybe Intel already did that but didn't tell anybody...


This makes no sense! Why is it different? WHO wasn't warned? And what COLLECTION and MINING of your personal data do you actually think they're doing? Do you REALLY think they have thousands of analyss sitting there keeping tabs on every single user of Windows? Peering into their browser history, and reading all their emails, whilst taking notes, and using that information for nefarious purposes? No, that's NOT what happens. 

Enough of the shouting Mark!  The question is not what MS do with the data.  It's the principle that they are collecting it which is the issue here.  As we all know, collected data is sometimes used for different purposes than those for which it was collected.  Or of course, it can be leaked, hacked, whatever.  Think Ashley Madison here...

It's this kind of invasive pushing of the privacy boundaries which has the potential to drive people towards Linux.  Actually, I know some people who have recently gone that way.  MS is treading a very fine line here between what is arguably their finest ever product, and turning people off in droves because they feel their rights have been violated.  Everyone who installs W10 has either paid for it directly with a new PC, or paid for it previously with 7 or 8.  They have paid money in the expectation of a similar deal to what they have had in the past, and to find the rules being changed surreptitiously is more than a little disconcerting.
]


Hey well thats not right at all. You don't pay for thousands of hours of new coding, by having purchased a prior product. That's like paying for Dragon Age 1, and expecting to get DA 2 for free.

Those new substantive hours have to be paid for. For the free upgrades, thats paid for with data - thats the deal.

Microsoft advertising cortana based on her ability to learn from your user/useage, the advertising campaign, for w10, told us that completely upfront, months ago. Indeed it was obvious to me from the moment they said 'free upgrade' that it would be modelled like google's android, facebook etc. 

The question should be 'is the product worth it for me, am I getting value for access to my data'  IMO. In the case of facebook, I don't beleive it is - they are selling that info, for very targeted advertising to third parties for a butload of money, and where is the value for that profitable cost? At least google provides top notch indexing and algorythms, facebook just happens to be popular, not even the best designed social network. What about free cloud storage, e-mail, or some bonus services. Nope, just staid old facebook and them making billions.

Win10, at least they are giving you good value coding in exchange. For me, thats where peoples awareness should be changed. It's okay to pay with data. But data should never be given for 'free', when what is received in return is not worth it. Data has value. 

It would be nice if these companies all of them, gave us a cash option to opt out - and this is where it is slimy, they don't give us that because it would make the masses know how much data is worth. They don't want the public to know their data is valuable, and that means as people have said, with google, facebook, whoever, there is a lack of transparency. That IS concerning. If we are paying for something, its fair we know that, and how much what we ar paying is worth. 




Based on your comments, some people are paying a lot more for this OS than others are. 

MS has NOT made clear that it expects to give you this operating system in exchange for data. Most people don't read the T&C's or EULA's etc, and I don't believe anyone expects they are paying for their OS with access to their private data which MS can use for any purpose it sees fit. 

Imagine if they advertised that on TV? 

I don't believe your premise that you are paying for your OS with your data in the first place, my comments above are just to point out the balance of the argument you made. IF you are correct and this is the premise that MS is offering this "FREE" upgrade, then they are in breach of at least 3 laws I can think of, and would likely be facing class action lawsuits in almost every first world country.

Also based on your comments, if your premise was true, then they would be giving Non upgrades away for free, and OEM versions that come with your PC's which you ultimately pay for, and those "paid" upgrades wouldn't have these conditions.



418 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1372694 23-Aug-2015 21:22
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networkn:
Dreal:
grant_k:
markl:
grant_k:
jim.cox:
I'm not paranoid.

I just do not think that serving up advertising is a necessary ( or wanted ) function of my computer's operating system.

And nor is the collection of data to allow such advertising to be targeted.

I agree with you Jim.  Seeing all those options where you permit MS to gather this & that data for whatever purpose was the one negative in my W10 upgrade experience, so I turned all of them off.  It's no business of an OS vendor to be collecting that sort of data and they should keep their noses out of it.

If you use Facebook or the web version of Gmail, that's the trade-off you make for a free service, which is fair enough as nobody can say they weren't warned.  With an OS it's a different matter because it's at a much lower level.  What will they think of next?  A BIOS which mines your data?  Maybe Intel already did that but didn't tell anybody...


This makes no sense! Why is it different? WHO wasn't warned? And what COLLECTION and MINING of your personal data do you actually think they're doing? Do you REALLY think they have thousands of analyss sitting there keeping tabs on every single user of Windows? Peering into their browser history, and reading all their emails, whilst taking notes, and using that information for nefarious purposes? No, that's NOT what happens. 

Enough of the shouting Mark!  The question is not what MS do with the data.  It's the principle that they are collecting it which is the issue here.  As we all know, collected data is sometimes used for different purposes than those for which it was collected.  Or of course, it can be leaked, hacked, whatever.  Think Ashley Madison here...

It's this kind of invasive pushing of the privacy boundaries which has the potential to drive people towards Linux.  Actually, I know some people who have recently gone that way.  MS is treading a very fine line here between what is arguably their finest ever product, and turning people off in droves because they feel their rights have been violated.  Everyone who installs W10 has either paid for it directly with a new PC, or paid for it previously with 7 or 8.  They have paid money in the expectation of a similar deal to what they have had in the past, and to find the rules being changed surreptitiously is more than a little disconcerting.
]


Hey well thats not right at all. You don't pay for thousands of hours of new coding, by having purchased a prior product. That's like paying for Dragon Age 1, and expecting to get DA 2 for free.

Those new substantive hours have to be paid for. For the free upgrades, thats paid for with data - thats the deal.

Microsoft advertising cortana based on her ability to learn from your user/useage, the advertising campaign, for w10, told us that completely upfront, months ago. Indeed it was obvious to me from the moment they said 'free upgrade' that it would be modelled like google's android, facebook etc. 

The question should be 'is the product worth it for me, am I getting value for access to my data'  IMO. In the case of facebook, I don't beleive it is - they are selling that info, for very targeted advertising to third parties for a butload of money, and where is the value for that profitable cost? At least google provides top notch indexing and algorythms, facebook just happens to be popular, not even the best designed social network. What about free cloud storage, e-mail, or some bonus services. Nope, just staid old facebook and them making billions.

Win10, at least they are giving you good value coding in exchange. For me, thats where peoples awareness should be changed. It's okay to pay with data. But data should never be given for 'free', when what is received in return is not worth it. Data has value. 

It would be nice if these companies all of them, gave us a cash option to opt out - and this is where it is slimy, they don't give us that because it would make the masses know how much data is worth. They don't want the public to know their data is valuable, and that means as people have said, with google, facebook, whoever, there is a lack of transparency. That IS concerning. If we are paying for something, its fair we know that, and how much what we ar paying is worth. 




Based on your comments, some people are paying a lot more for this OS than others are. 

MS has NOT made clear that it expects to give you this operating system in exchange for data. Most people don't read the T&C's or EULA's etc, and I don't believe anyone expects they are paying for their OS with access to their private data which MS can use for any purpose it sees fit. 

Imagine if they advertised that on TV? 

I don't believe your premise that you are paying for your OS with your data in the first place, my comments above are just to point out the balance of the argument you made. IF you are correct and this is the premise that MS is offering this "FREE" upgrade, then they are in breach of at least 3 laws I can think of, and would likely be facing class action lawsuits in almost every first world country.

Also based on your comments, if your premise was true, then they would be giving Non upgrades away for free, and OEM versions that come with your PC's which you ultimately pay for, and those "paid" upgrades wouldn't have these conditions.




The exact same thins is true of all the other data mining companies. Your android mobile doesn't tell you its data mining, facebook doesn't officially say 'hey you are paying for this service with data'. None of them are transparent about it. Which I agree is an issue - they should tell us we are paying with data, all of them. Make it clear.

IDK understand the law element. I don't see how its any different from 'free' facebook, or 'free' android, or 'free' google search, etc etc etc, legally. Heck microsoft even used quotes I believe when they said 'free'. And I am not sure a court would say that facebook isn't free, even though they take something of value. Anyway, its not new territory. Its old territory. 

Your last comment brings me back to the transparency issue. Facebook does not allow you a paid opt out. Android doesn't. Google search interestingly does (only for the advertising, not for the data mining) - but for the most part the fact you are paying full, part whatever, using data (ie part or all of the software houses profit is from data), is sort of 'skimmed' over in the case of all of those companies, and they generally avoid paid 'opt-out' because it shows you directly the value of your data. _That_ imo is the slimy bad bit of using data to pay for a service.

I don't mind paying with data for a good service. But I do not like that they try to hide that such is occurring, and also hide the value of it by not offering opt out.  And that is what they all do, and that should change - and it doing so people would be aware they are giving something of value in exchange for something. 

That is the issue I think. The transparency of the whole process. 

As I understand it, it must be that the data cannot pay for the cost+profit alone. 

It's pretty obvious that if you spend thousands of hours coding something, and that is a serious cash investment, giving it away free to prior customers is a serious loss of not only profit, but a loss of outright cash. Equivilant, even if you made other sales, of pouring cash onto a giant stack, and setting it alight.

So that has to be paid for somehow right. How do you imagine that is being paid for?




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gzt

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Uber Geek


  # 1372699 23-Aug-2015 21:43
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The issue is a blurring of lines between the operating system features and the collection of data for various purposes. My biggest concern is this has not been clearly thought through to create clear separation at the architectural level. This can only lead to problems. Imho Microsoft will be assesing some of this feedback and considering changes to retain the trust of their customers. There are issues.

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