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2092 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1404235 12-Oct-2015 11:51
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nunz:
wasabi2k: At the end of the day I stand by my original statement - if there is nothing in Windows 10 your clients want or need, then don't upgrade.

However, new hardware will come with 10, so you will have to spend the time downgrading. If you are deploying an SOE anyway, it doesn't matter as long as drivers are available. You will also find a lot of cool new devices (like the Surface Book) will require it to do all their cool stuff. But if you are just handling desktops and business laptops then who cares.

I think what I am having trouble with is your list of downsides aren't really accurate - and all of them can be addressed through customizing your SOE, group policy and other administrative controls. 0

There are new features in 10 (a quick google will find most of them) - Windows Hello (which is basically just Biometric Framework, the new version), Device Guard, better MDM, better Azure AD support, improvements to Bitlocker... but if you aren't interested in those then don't bother.

If you are happy with the status quo - stay with the status quo. 




THANK-YOU - FIRST PERSON TO GIVE BENEFITS TO BUSINESS.

1 - Bio Metric Framework.  - Benefit for business - thank you - better handling of new ways to authenticate using Bio Metrics.   While bioMetrics have been out for a while, adding better support for them is a good thing. can it be done with other drivers? Yes but tighter integration with OS for ease if implementation and effectiveness = good.
2 - Device Guard - Benefit for business - with a dark downside. It's Just more of the same old processes to stop malicious code using signing. That's both benefit and nuance as there are increasing complaints surrounding OS control of what should and shouldn't run as a form of censorship. Chrome Browser, Nortons Security and Microsoft pre Win X all getting complaints as it is stopping legitimate applications running - and raises the spectre of who controls the code signing? If it is Microsoft or other large companies like Apple with a vested interest - then that is a dark path to travel down .
3 - Improvements in Bitlocker - Benefit maybe- possibly getting those in windows 7 via updates. Using an Os to provide disk level security can be a good thing - tight integration, however having used / still using some of the other options prior to Bitlocker - am a bit ambiguous about that.  I would rather use a third party version because if MS screws up their security (not that they would ever do that of course) then that's everyone vulnerable where as using third party offer less chance of everyone getting hit and probably quicker deployment of patches.

MDM - no benefit to desktop users - in fact downside to desktop uses - code and processes that are not required for desktop / laptop = bloat and security issues.


I'll score you a 3.0  benefits for that list.  Those are actually things that business may benefit from - albeit with some cautions as noted above. However i will note it has very little benefit to the core functions of an everyday business user.






If you read my update above - I agree with you regarding business value proposition.



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Master Geek


  # 1404257 12-Oct-2015 12:16
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Ill just add that in my work place we upgraded from XP because of the following reasons
1) XP went end of life. Had to upgrade before April 2014
2) Direct Access in 8.1 was superior than in 7
3) Faster performance (especially when paired with an SSD) in 8.1 over 7
4) Better multicore processor support in 8.1 over 7
5) Superior touch screen support (we were rolling out tablet/laptop hybrids)
6) Server 2012 R2 (the accompanying Server OS) was 10 times better than 2008 R2, especially with Server Core roles.
7) Start screen problem could be overcome by installing Classic shell. This was the clincher for 8.1 over 7.

For us everything in 8.1 just made sense for our upgrade. You need to do something like this for your environment.

 
 
 
 




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  # 1404259 12-Oct-2015 12:17
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jhsol:
nunz: It's no secret, I'm not a fan boy when it comes to Windows 8 / 8.1 or 10.   However I do try to maintain some level of dispassion when it comes to making choices for my clients. with that in mind I thought it might be worth while doing a joint SWOT  / Risk analysis for businesses wanting to move up from windows 7 to new OS on their desktop machines / laptops.

Here are the parameters - It's a risk  / benefit analysis. It's not what we do or don't like, it's what adds benefit or risk to a business.

I'm going to take the negative side - sticking with Win7 as I honestly cannot see the benefit in upgrading at present. I present my anterior aspect to the geekzone community, ready to be spanked, schooled and enlightened by those who think there is a benefit.  Who knows - hopefully I'll learn something. 

Risks:
1 - Security best practice says reduce / eliminate that which is not required. Metro screen and apps - hard to remove, most of them dont add benefit to a business and it adds a nother layer of securty requirements (e.g. a second IE engine, apps framework etc) 
2 - The jump from windows 2000 to WinXP added a lot of network traffic into the lan. The jump from XP to Win* / 10 adds even more. most of it is of no benefit but adds cost and slows down networks. 
3 - More network functionality exposed with little to no business benefit. Reduces security.
4 - Time loss / wastage: Adding links to social media does little to benefit business and a lot to adding to time wastage by employees.
5 - Metro Screen and lack of start screen / new start screen slows down multi tasking.
6 - Now more clicks to do the same tasks. The ribbon in Office has also added a gazillion clicks to our everyday lives.
7 - Subscription model / advertising. Intrusive, adds risk of information breach, time wasting, network hogging, adds security risks.
8 - Throwing away tested software nad introducing whole new code base adds in more risk in the short term - long term it is a better strategy - but not now.
9 - Tie in / buy in. options are becoming more limited with less vendor options. XP heralded the explosion of open source, innovation and diversity. windows Store, (and yes iTunes store, google store etc) reducing that innovation nad choice. 
10 - Central security and control of updates, log ins, security - all your eggs in one basket. Breached once - big damage. Security belongs in house - need to know for passwords, tokens etc.


As someone that has done multiple migrations over the last 6-7 years with my most recent being an XP -> 8.1 migration here is my input

1) 95% of Windows 8.1 metro apps can be removed via a powershell command. Hit google for it. Our base 8.1 image was a capture of a machine that had this script run on it. Im not too sure about Windows 10 apps (will have an answer for this by the end of this year as we prepare our Windows 10 deployments).

2) The traffic will hardly saturate a 100Mb network let alone a 1Gb. If you are running Gb lans expect your traffic to jump from 0.5% to 0.6% average

3) Use group policies to lock it down. 95% of all functionality can be locked down via Group policy. The other 4% can probably be done via registry hacks.

4) Not too sure how this affects time wastage. If your staff are abusing social media sites already then technically the OS will speed up their abusing (and hopefully) get them back into doing real work. So you could argue this will actually increase staff productivity, not decrease it. If you really are worried about staff internet usage try looking into a proxy/web filtering service.

5) We use classic shell as a default install for our Windows 8.1 environment. 95% of our users experienced no issues when transitioning from the XP to 8.1 OS. The other 5% were natural complainers. It took about 2-3 weeks for them to get use to it. And this was an XP environment for the last 10 years.
If anything it increases the demand on IT support staff for that 2-3 weeks (our ticket numbers increased by about 10-20%) but after about a month it dropped back down to normal. Ultimately there was very little lost productivity across the board. 
For Windows 10 this argument is not applicable as the start menu is back again. Expect 1-2 weeks at most for users to get used to it before it becomes normal.

6) The clicks are exactly the same across all office products for 2007 and onwards. There is a massive jump between Office 2003 and 2007 in terms of location of items etc. But the UI for Office 2007, 2010, 2013 and 2016 are near identical. If your users are jumping from 2003 (which is already out of extended support) then you are running a security risk in your business. 

7) You can still get offline versions of products for Office. You need to see a volume license reseller. You can also buy subscription or perpetual licenses for all MS software which allows you to run the offline installers. 

9) This is called evolution. If you are really hung up on these outdated relics you are more than welcome to pay MS the $$$ to support it. If not get on board and upgrade. Each new OS brought something new to the table, and whilst some releases were poor (Vista and 8.0 in mind) it allowed MS to go back and fix those issues. Without Windows 2k we would not have had XP. Without Vista we would not have had Windows 7. And without 8.0 we would not have had 8.1 (which was great by the way).
Going forward Windows 10 is the last release of Windows (according to MS at least). Once you upgrade to windows 10 you will not have to upgrade to windows 11, 12 or 13 as the Windows 10 engine will be the same. It even has a LTSB release (ala Linux) where you can install that version of Windows 10 and know that updates will come every couple of years vs every couple of months (CB release).

10) - Im not too sure what argument you are trying to make here. If you are talking about comparing Office 365 to Office offline then this would make sense. If you are talking about Windows (7,8.1,10) then this doesnt make sense as the management of Windows is exactly the same. AD manages Windows 7, 8, 8.1, 10 (and yes it manages all 4 at the same time). WSUS handles the updates (and yep it can handle managing all updates for all OS including servers). All major enterprise AV solutions usually have some form of central management (Symantec, MS, McAfee, AVG etc). Once again all of this (AD, WSUS, AV) is managed centrally and if you have your own technicians then it will be in house. The only time it isnt is if you outsource your IT (in which case its managed out of house).
If however you are talking about cloud based solutions (office 365, Azure etc) vs non cloud based solutions then your question needs to be directed to the specific application in mind. Otherwise it has no bearing on whether to update from Windows 7 to 8.1/10.

But yea as said in a previous post unless your business is currently mid 8.1 rollout, you are better diverting your time to Windows 10 testing/deployment. 10 is everything 8.1 is but with a start menu.


Interesting you mention 8.1 and Windows Classic. It the exact same route we took when forced to deal with Win 8 / 8.1  all our satisfied Win 8.1 users are using classic shell and as a generalisation that would hold true of most happy 8.1 desktop users I have met.

Re the clicks argument. Try shutting down in windows 7, now try it in windows 8.1 without classic shell.   simple jobs like changing passwords, getting to network settings etc are musch more click intensive after windows 7.


My argument here is not technical as much as business facing. businesses are getting this touted as the latest and greatest and the question they are asking, and should be asking, is What is in it for us.

We fully plan to migrate our clients to Win X - in 18 - 24 months if MS gets it up to scratch. However there are some things we are not comfortable with surrounding driver updates having to be from MS and not being able to turn of updates without penalty from MS. From a risk perspective - those risks are too high. currently we continue to roll out Windows 7 Pro - and while that is a business risk for us (we get less work as it is just so darn stable and trouble free) it is better for our clients.

Some thoughts on risk to business from others:
http://www.itproportal.com/2015/02/02/inherent-security-risks-microsofts-windows-10/

Things to turn off - gateways to your company data


Wifi key sharing - you only have to miss one device and your network is done.  You let one guest on your network, then all their friends can be given access to via friends sharing with friends.







nunz



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  # 1404270 12-Oct-2015 12:35
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jhsol: Ill just add that in my work place we upgraded from XP because of the following reasons
1) XP went end of life. Had to upgrade before April 2014
2) Direct Access in 8.1 was superior than in 7
3) Faster performance (especially when paired with an SSD) in 8.1 over 7
4) Better multicore processor support in 8.1 over 7
5) Superior touch screen support (we were rolling out tablet/laptop hybrids)
6) Server 2012 R2 (the accompanying Server OS) was 10 times better than 2008 R2, especially with Server Core roles.
7) Start screen problem could be overcome by installing Classic shell. This was the clincher for 8.1 over 7.

For us everything in 8.1 just made sense for our upgrade. You need to do something like this for your environment.


We have multiple environments with multiple needs. Some of them wont have the ability to connect to a Windows domain server and use WSUS / Group mangement etc. Other will.

I don't know why people keep assuming I'm a luddite. I have run bleeding edge systems for many years. We are trialling and using systems ahead of time in many areas.  However, Windows 10 - for business - not yet - later maybe. in Oct they release an LTS type pack. And again first half? of next year. It will be interesting to see how those go. Right now updates are fraught with a few disasters since it was released.

For us everything in 8.1 just made sense for our upgrade. You need to do something like this for your environment.


Using classic shell to make the windows 8 / 8.1 interface manageable isn't always possible. The chances of getting that type of software into Govt and other highly corporatised enviroments is pretty low.

The argument to use Classic Shell with Windows 8.1 is almost an anti argument. If the interface sucks so badly you have to modify it, dont use it. I dropped the standard Ubuntu interface as soon as they stopped icons being pinnable on the desktop. It didn't work without heavy modification. Windows 7 is stable, Windows 8 was a mess, windows 8.1 was a cleanup of win8 and still needs modification to make it runnable. Windows 10 - too unstable yet.

We have home user clients who upgraded to windows 10 - many of them had a bad experience. some had a good experience and wish they hadn't upgraded - they aren't liking it from an interface or performance level. Will they get used to it? Maybe

Windows 8.1 also has some real issues around updates. We have had to turn off auto updates as the CPU keeps getting chewed up by the Windows 8.1 upddate processes. There is no fix for that.  Again - not a risk we wanted to take with our business clients.
 
As for server 2012 - I have three of them and HATE the interface. I don't want wizards I want a desktop with icons. Why? Faster, quicker, less clicks, easier to manage. I get to do things my way. all those fancy interfaces just make my job slower. And for the record - I administer my Linux servers with the command line. Quicker, more efficient, it doesn't hide stuff from me. luddite? No - just don't have time to waste on annoying GUI design.








nunz

92 posts

Master Geek


  # 1404279 12-Oct-2015 12:46
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nunz: 

Interesting you mention 8.1 and Windows Classic. It the exact same route we took when forced to deal with Win 8 / 8.1  all our satisfied Win 8.1 users are using classic shell and as a generalisation that would hold true of most happy 8.1 desktop users I have met.

Re the clicks argument. Try shutting down in windows 7, now try it in windows 8.1 without classic shell.   simple jobs like changing passwords, getting to network settings etc are musch more click intensive after windows 7.

My argument here is not technical as much as business facing. businesses are getting this touted as the latest and greatest and the question they are asking, and should be asking, is What is in it for us.

We fully plan to migrate our clients to Win X - in 18 - 24 months if MS gets it up to scratch. However there are some things we are not comfortable with surrounding driver updates having to be from MS and not being able to turn of updates without penalty from MS. From a risk perspective - those risks are too high. currently we continue to roll out Windows 7 Pro - and while that is a business risk for us (we get less work as it is just so darn stable and trouble free) it is better for our clients.

Some thoughts on risk to business from others:
http://www.itproportal.com/2015/02/02/inherent-security-risks-microsofts-windows-10/

Things to turn off - gateways to your company data


Wifi key sharing - you only have to miss one device and your network is done.  You let one guest on your network, then all their friends can be given access to via friends sharing with friends.


- Right click on your Start button in Win 8.1 instead of left click like you do in Win 7. Select Shutdown or Sign out. 2 clicks (Same as Win 7)
- Yes you need to do your own assessment of your environment. We did it for us because XP was outdated and due for End of Life. If thats not an issue for you guys then work out whether you need/want to move off Win 7. Just as an example lets say you are replacing all your hardware with tablets. Maybe the touch screen experience on Win 7 is not enough so you want to upgrade for that reason. What ever your reasons are you need to work it out yourself.
- Driver updates dont have to be from MS. You can block those via WSUS. Im not too sure what penalty you are talking about. There is no penalty to turning off driver updates via WSUS.
- I read the article you linked re http://www.itproportal.com/2015/02/02/inherent-security-risks-microsofts-windows-10/ You can turn off biometric signins via Group Policy (Comp Config -> Admin Templates -> Windows Components -> Biometrics)
- No group policy for turning wifi sense off but a regedit HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WcmSvc\wifinetworkmanager\config\AutoConnectAllowedOEM DWORD 0. Roll this out using Group Policy preferences and all domain joined PCs will get this. The great thing about Group Policy is that it doesnt miss. If the device is domain joined, it will get this setting as soon as it joins the domain. You also have the ability to script it if you have a proper deployment strategy in place (where the key is applied even before you join the domain). Lastly letting guests on your corporate network is the security fault, not the wifi sense. Every wifi router Ive seen today lets you create multiple SSIDs (with 4 being minimum). Create 2 Wifi SSIDs (one for your corporate, one for guests) and lock the guest one down and problems solved. Now create an internal written policy that says the wifi guest password must change every x days/weeks. 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. You need to do your own assessment and find out what is in it for you guys. If nothing is in it, then there is no need to move (at least until 2020).

nunz:
Using classic shell to make the windows 8 / 8.1 interface manageable isn't always possible. The chances of getting that type of software into Govt and other highly corporatised enviroments is pretty low.

The argument to use Classic Shell with Windows 8.1 is almost an anti argument. If the interface sucks so badly you have to modify it, dont use it. I dropped the standard Ubuntu interface as soon as they stopped icons being pinnable on the desktop. It didn't work without heavy modification. Windows 7 is stable, Windows 8 was a mess, windows 8.1 was a cleanup of win8 and still needs modification to make it runnable. Windows 10 - too unstable yet.

We have home user clients who upgraded to windows 10 - many of them had a bad experience. some had a good experience and wish they hadn't upgraded - they aren't liking it from an interface or performance level. Will they get used to it? Maybe

Windows 8.1 also has some real issues around updates. We have had to turn off auto updates as the CPU keeps getting chewed up by the Windows 8.1 upddate processes. There is no fix for that.  Again - not a risk we wanted to take with our business clients.
 
As for server 2012 - I have three of them and HATE the interface. I don't want wizards I want a desktop with icons. Why? Faster, quicker, less clicks, easier to manage. I get to do things my way. all those fancy interfaces just make my job slower. And for the record - I administer my Linux servers with the command line. Quicker, more efficient, it doesn't hide stuff from me. luddite? No - just don't have time to waste on annoying GUI design.


- I work for a government organisation. I had no issues getting it authorised to be installed in the default build image.

- The start screen sucked for desktop users. Its actually really good if you are using tablets. However the argument to say that because I have a way of making the UI more familiar to XP/7 users doesnt diminish the argument for installing Windows 8.1. Classic Shell is a tool, just like Office, IE browsers and every other application that isnt built into Windows by default is. 

- We have many home users that upgraded to 10. All of them had a good experience (I have had no negative feedback regarding a Windows 10 upgrade). In fact, all of them commented that their migration to Windows 10 was better than their migration to 8.1. 

- I dont have that issue in my environment. I have over 150 machines on windows 8.1. The issue probably lies with your build/environment/hardware. 

- Server 2012 R2 with classic shell lol. However I use Server 2012 R2 Core in all my servers that support it (about 30% of my environment) so no need to flex your command line skills in this post. Each IT support person has their own ways of doing it. Some are faster with a GUI, some arent however thats the benefit of Server 2012. Powershell works on all servers whether it has a GUI or not. Hell with Server 2012 R2 I dont even need to log in to any of the servers since Powershell commands work remotely from my Windows 8.1 laptop (yep, you guessed it Powershell is built into it by default). Heh, that sounds really similar to SSHing onto a linux box aye?

Are you speaking on behalf of an environment you support? Or on behalf of clients who are asking you to upgrade them and you are looking for reasons not to? As has been mentioned before if your environment has no need for the new features in 8.1/10 then there is no reason to move from 7. If your customers are asking you to upgrade them maybe you should just do what they are paying you to do and leave them with a written warning regarding potential issues? Its just that none of the arguments you are making in this post is enough to build a strong case to not upgrade. If anything it sort of highlights how much lacking you are in locking down a Windows environment (and this isnt an insult, im 99% sure you would kick my backside in Linux deployments).


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  # 1404363 12-Oct-2015 14:25
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Your business case for upgrading will be made for you in about 4 years. Windows 7 will be EOL, so your clients will need to upgrade if they want to retain compliance etc.
I won't pretend to be as advanced as you in this, you have clearly done a bit more research than I have and likely have more experience too.
That said Windows 10 brings a bunch of performance improvements and the ability to have a smaller OS footprint.

-Powershell is everywhere and covers all functions, this is a real plus for me. Need something, script it, need it to run 100 times on 100 machines, you have a built in scripting language that runs everywhere including servers.

-Windows 10 has been as stable as a stable thing for us and the start menu makes some users happy. I personally preferred the 8.1 menu but the one in 10 is not bad now I am used to it. Server 2012R2 has been vastly more stable for me than Server 2008 especially and even 2008R2.

-The integration with Windows Server is excellent and past the initial setup, I no longer need to use the GUI. For Windows Server 2016, I am going to be going full server core on my hyper-V cluster now I am more experienced in powershell. It is easy to integrate Hyper-V with Azure if we want to extend our cluster into the cloud and the improvements coming in 2016 for Hyper-V are looking amazing.

-Everyone freaks out about the update process using sharing over LAN, but say you have an office with 10 or 20 people and you don't have wsus, that is a massive saving in downloads and bandwidth.

-We use Direct access and it has been hugely stable on Server 2012R2 and Windows 8.1/10. Secure business access from anywhere with an internet connection that users don't have to worry about is an amazing thing.

-Server installs less services by default and is smarter in how it is set up so it is more secure.

-RSAT means I don't need to have full server installs for management tools. Server core + RSAT = powershell for command line and RSAT for GUI. I get a tiny secure server install and It is just as easy to manage as it ever was.

-Hyper-V on the desktop is a huge bonus for those of us who need it. I can build a VM on my desktop, Move it onto a server and then run it in Azure if needed. Not saying that is the best approach, but the one Microsoft platform everywhere is an amazing capability for business to tap into. That extends beyond virtualization too. Microsoft is developing an unmatched depth of integration between all of it's services. This extends to non Microsoft tech too.

Last thing I will say is most of us don't know you from Adam. Your comments are coming across like an old sysadmin who thinks Windows 2k and Server 2003 were the pinnacle of Microsoft evolution. That ignores a ton of advancement that Microsoft have made and does make you look a bit of a Luddite to use your words. Use what is best for you and your clients, if that is linux, get them on it, if it is Windows 7, keep using it, if it is Windows 10, make the changes you need to and get clients used to it because it is not going away.






Try Vultr using this link and get us both some credit:

 

http://www.vultr.com/?ref=7033587-3B




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  # 1404463 12-Oct-2015 15:41
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ast thing I will say is most of us don't know you from Adam. Your comments are coming across like an old sysadmin who thinks Windows 2k and Server 2003 were the pinnacle of Microsoft evolution. That ignores a ton of advancement that Microsoft have made and does make you look a bit of a Luddite to use your words. Use what is best for you and your clients, if that is linux, get them on it, if it is Windows 7, keep using it, if it is Windows 10, make the changes you need to and get clients used to it because it is not going away.
 


Busted :) 

My experience goes like this. WinNT / Win2k stable as all get out. 
WinXP - disaster area until SP1 and SP2, but from someone who remembers what it was like to be a sysadmin who concentrated on functionality and not virus updates, security, locking down settings against exploits etc, that's still one heck of a change.

We kept our clients on winXP until mid 2011 and they thanked us for it - seeing the debacle of Vista.  We kept them off Win 8 and Win 8.1, again they have thanked us for it - especially with the change in GUI.   Our adage is simple, if you live on the cutting edge, you will bleed sometime.  Our clients prefer a risk adverse approach - my bank account doesn't as we dont make anywhere near as much from clients as many of their previous IT people we have followed.

Win 10 - long term I really hope it is everyting it is meant to be - I know that computers are more network attached than ever with cloud services and SOA but that shouldn't mean we spend so much effort on security. apple OS has benefited from the approach MS is now emulating, stability building on stability, but the difference I see here is that MS is so focused on fluff and bubble that the core stability may be compromised by continuing fluff features.   We will push our clients onto it - in 12-18 months time, and we will use things like classic shell etc to keep it as painless as possible, with as little upskilling or training as possible.   that's our business focussed IT approach. 


While Microsoft keep playing with the user interface, keep adding in stuff that needs to be turned off out of the box like Wifi sharing, P2P updates, UPNP, Media streaming,  MS hosted log in credentials, OneDrive and Office Synch auto installing then I will be very very cautious about rolling it out. Most of the new features are home user facing.  Win 8 / 8.1 Metro screen is a classic example of this - no benefit to business desktop and laptop users. Their crippleware mail app was another example and having TWO versions of IE to sort out - completely dumb. 

As an old school computer guy - i like spending my time helping my clients gt more out of their systems, not shutting down features, blocking security holes and working hard AGAINST the OS to get it to behave securely and efficiently.   I also hate bloat proliferation, talk to me as a programmer aobut new code versus old code and you'll wonder if i came out with the ark (Noahs, not Indiana Jones's). Faster hardware, faster networks, yet not faster responses as OS bloat, network bloat and code bloat suck up gains made. 

My conclusion to this thread:
From a business point of view there is little that is new in Win X that is of benefit to businesses - except RDP / RDS / Direct access for working across a work network that now stretches outside the LAN, surface / touch functionality and functionality designed to help implement easier security across a broad range of locations and devices e.g. biometrics etc  

As of yet there is still too much changing to ensure stability is maintained and risk reduced. I cannot see a business case out of the answers given that a business owner would accept in a risk / reward analysis - yet. 

There is also a lot of stuff added that means more training for staff, more work securing and managing for IT staff and thus more cost for no direct work benefit. e.g. wifi sharing, live tiles management, updates management of drivers etc.

My advice to my clients is still going to be  - Wait!!   Ask me again in 12-18 months.

Lastly - updates are going to be one of things we watch the most. Windows home users - are forced to accept updates, windows pro can delay them and windows enterprise have the ability to do updates most like prior OS's.
As long as MS declares itself the arbitrator of device upgrades, and depending on how their App signing direction goes, I'll always suggest caution as control remains out of the end users' hands - and they know best what they need, not MS. With Apple and Chrome acting lie a Nanny state more and more (java, flash, code signing, blocked sites, blocked apps, blocked downloads etc) it will be interesting to see where MS goes
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/07/windows-10-updates-to-be-automatic-and-mandatory-for-home-users/


PS Rock on Windows Power Shell.  - no more nasty kludges in DOs Batch for next loops, while wends, etc. goodbye sleep.bat.  









nunz

 
 
 
 


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  # 1404492 12-Oct-2015 16:30
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I'm late to this thread, But the majority of your 'cons' can be easily removed / fixed with Group Policy or simply aren't applicable to the Enterprise version of Windows 10.
Alot of the fear I'm seeing from IT people not wanting Windows 10 is features / settings that are only applicable to the consumer versions and they haven't spent the time researching the Enterprise version or what you can do with Group policy on Windows 10.



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  # 1404530 12-Oct-2015 17:21
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Andib: I'm late to this thread, But the majority of your 'cons' can be easily removed / fixed with Group Policy or simply aren't applicable to the Enterprise version of Windows 10.
A lot of the fear I'm seeing from IT people not wanting Windows 10 is features / settings that are only applicable to the consumer versions and they haven't spent the time researching the Enterprise version or what you can do with Group policy on Windows 10.


Agreed but one of my prime arguments is any OS that I have to play with the gui to make more acceptable (like Windows 8.1) or spend my time crippingling and locking down, is  a risk / cost that a business shouldn't have to bear. 

Secondly - Smaller businesses might buy enterprise or Pro version but as Ms have already shown, if they are not connected to a domain they are treated differently. E.g. Win 7 Pro receives Win 10 adverts if not on a domain.  Is that the case with win10 Enterprise or pro?

If that's the case then the forced upgrade issue comes into play, along with other crud like possible advertising, Wifi sharing etc etc etc. 

Someone suggested Windows Power Shell to remove live tiles / apps etc. I've done that on a few new machines for windows 8.1. They still appear in windows uninstaller as well and cleaning up Program Files area by hand is often required. Now crippling Windows Store so no more tiles / apps can be used - that's priceless.


PS: I've just 10 minutes ago received another pc with Windows 7 Pro to fix where an older client accidentally pushed the upgrade button and it's all gone very wrong.  the damn advert came back even after locking it down with a registry setting, two vbs scripts and a dont install that update again command.  What if windows 10 acts like that with the changes put in by Group Policy / registry settings when the device isn't on a domain.





nunz

1508 posts

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  # 1404605 12-Oct-2015 19:46
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nunz: My advice to my clients is still going to be  - Wait!!   Ask me again in 12-18 months.


That is still a valid option. Windows 7 is still a supported and stable OS. It looks to be getting harder to buy on new hardware though. Seems if you are not buying business class devices, even driver support is only provided for Windows 8/8.1 and now 10. Windows 7 also can tap into some of what the newer OS's bring.
For example DirectAccess on server 2012R2 still supports Windows 7 as long as you put a trusted cert onto the endpoint, tick a box in the wizard and install a DA helper on the client. Powershell 4+ is available via installer. It is still going to be a business favorite for a year or two yet. Just as long as you don't let your clients get into the XP situation where they are sitting on an unsupported OS which is at it's end of life, it is not a problem.
I think the only other thing is the cloud is where Microsoft is going and they are going to continue to integrate that way, you either get on board the train or make a business in Mac and Linux I guess.




Try Vultr using this link and get us both some credit:

 

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  # 1404639 12-Oct-2015 20:58
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paulmilbank:
nunz: My advice to my clients is still going to be  - Wait!!   Ask me again in 12-18 months.


.....
I think the only other thing is the cloud is where Microsoft is going and they are going to continue to integrate that way, you either get on board the train or make a business in Mac and Linux I guess.


Funny you should mention that.   We started using Linux file servers SAMBA over 12 years ago - possibly more. Unlike windows 2003, they allowed Windows XP machines to do the whole roaming profile thing in far better ways than Windows native server did. Dont even ask about stability - measured in years between reboots, not weeks or months.

That said, we never ever looked at Linux desktops - just not ready for Jo average user.

Linux mint, latest editions, just changed that for me. I put it on our home pc (replaced windows 7) and the kids hardly noticed the difference. They run steam, flash, firefox, scratch programming, youtube, videos, music etc - no worries. 

My wife, who is really tech challenged (she's like the anti me) saw it had changed and asked me what to do. I said, do what you have always done using windows - so she has - no complaints or issues.

If my wife can migrate to a linux desktop - with no worries, (using thunderbird email, firefox, skype, vlc media player, open office) then pretty much anyone can.

While Ms are upsetting people with their GUI changes, Liunx is now easy to use for a windows person but is stable, secure, network friendly and has every toy anyone on the bleeding edge could want.

for business - Between Cloud SaaS (Xero / Myob / Freshbooks etc), WINE, Oracle virtual machines, open office, mozilla firefox, clients have word processing, emailing, spreadsheeting, web browsing, calenders, Ximian if you want it to look like Outlook, LDAP for domains inter operability with all sorts of file systems, better WebDav CIFs etc than windows offered, lower hardware costs ... and the list goes on.

For the first time in since the early 90's when I was playing with it, I believe it might actually provide a challenging desktop environment for Microsoft.

Proof of the pudding? i put it on a work laptop I cart around. Turned a throw away X- Windows XP dog into a well behaved laptop again. - And it hasn't peeved me off once - first time ever I can say that aobut Linux Desktop.

Also put it on a box and gave it to our receptionist to use at home.  she phoned with one question re connecting a printer, didn't get me, when I phoned back 15 minutes later it was working. When she wanted to use .epub she asked me how, i referred her to the package manager - she choose one that suited her, installed it - and is doing online courses using it. Again, she's a bright woman but not Pc savy - but linux has been trouble free for her and also for me as her tech support.

It makes the whole migration to Windows X a more complex question. I'll keep rolling out test boxes, am transforming our in house systems to Linux as i go - and if it works for us, will test drive it with some responsive clients as guinea pigs.

gotta say - its an interesting option.

On the same note, tried Zentyal - had possibilities but their support, sales and service sucked. cost me a lot of time and money because they didn't have good systems.  They regressed their imap / Active Synch type capabilities so they dont work - no fix expected for 4 months. Promising start - bad execution - but as a roll out SBS type server replacement fully integrated - it had possibilities. Especially with the hike Exchange has had in price.

with thet type of offering appearing, MS really needs to be careful how much they push the comfort envelope for end users.









nunz

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  # 1404820 13-Oct-2015 09:58
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- Driver updates dont have to be from MS. You can block those via WSUS. Im not too sure what penalty you are talking about. There is no penalty to turning off driver updates via WSUS.


Some Win8/10 drivers will ONLY come from MS , eg some HP printer drivers
So if you block driver updates, I presume some devices/periphials wont install , as is .

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  # 1404915 13-Oct-2015 11:36
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1101:
- Driver updates dont have to be from MS. You can block those via WSUS. Im not too sure what penalty you are talking about. There is no penalty to turning off driver updates via WSUS.


Some Win8/10 drivers will ONLY come from MS , eg some HP printer drivers
So if you block driver updates, I presume some devices/periphials wont install , as is .


First off lets get some facts straight. 
The drivers that are built in to Windows (and the ones that come from Windows update) are actually written by the device manufacturer, not by Microsoft. If the driver you are speaking of is built into Windows (or available from the Windows Update path) then it exists via your manufacturer (usually website). In your example for HP printer drivers why dont you let me know what model you are referring to because im pretty confident if I head to www.hp.com I will find a compatible and more up to date version of the driver that gets installed via Microsoft. On top of that HP (and other major printer manufacturers) now have a Universal print driver which works across their whole printer range (exceptions to the extremely old printers). So your first statement is wrong. 

Your second sentence is a question and the answer to this is if the driver isnt in the default MS database in the OS (Windows) then "yes it will not install". This means you have to manually install the driver from either the disk that came with the hardware you purchased, or via their website download. If however the device does exist in your OS driver database then it will install, even if you have blocked device driver updates. 
Nunz (the OP) was referring to cases where you install a driver for a particular hardware device, MS comes along and installs their version over top and causes it to break/do something different etc.

The time frame to get a driver approved via MS QA is much longer and stringent than the manufacturers QA so whilst drivers via MS will almost always be old, they usually are quite stable. They also strip out all the unnecessary options that manufacturers some times include via their installs. 




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  # 1405004 13-Oct-2015 13:27
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jhsol:
First off lets get some facts straight. 




Mate, really  smile
http://h20564.www2.hp.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docLocale=en_US&docId=emr_na-c03365145


Some printer drivers, even for Win8, are ONLY available via winupdate.
Sometimes there is no driver download,via winupdate only (so slow) and they will even state all this that printers support/driver webpage.
Ive come across this many times installing various printers.
SOME , HP laser printers do give the option of a universal HP printer driver.

My point is, that if driver updates are disabled, as NUNZ suggested, then some devices/periphials wont install. I have come across this myself & had to re-enable  driver updates just to get some peripherals installed (can then be turned off again)

Ive had a few instances of WinUpdate auto driver updates stopping a device from working (  NIC and a USB-HDMI adaptor:several times on that one), all fixed with a drv rollback . So its really a no-win situation , but hardly a deal breaker .

92 posts

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  # 1405023 13-Oct-2015 13:55
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1101:
jhsol:
First off lets get some facts straight. 




Mate, really  smile
http://h20564.www2.hp.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docLocale=en_US&docId=emr_na-c03365145


Some printer drivers, even for Win8, are ONLY available via winupdate.
Sometimes there is no driver download,via winupdate only (so slow) and they will even state all this that printers support/driver webpage.
Ive come across this many times installing various printers.
SOME , HP laser printers do give the option of a universal HP printer driver.

My point is, that if driver updates are disabled, as NUNZ suggested, then some devices/periphials wont install. I have come across this myself & had to re-enable  driver updates just to get some peripherals installed (can then be turned off again)

Ive had a few instances of WinUpdate auto driver updates stopping a device from working (  NIC and a USB-HDMI adaptor:several times on that one), all fixed with a drv rollback . So its really a no-win situation , but hardly a deal breaker .


You do realise the devices you are talking about are from 1995-1998 era? All the rest are available in OS (and I did say that there is an exception to extremely old printers). The cases you are dealing with are an extreme minority. 

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