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  # 653512 10-Jul-2012 13:30
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vinnieg: I find european car drivers to be extremely terrible, especially audi and bmw drivers /s :)

I agree with the above statements from a few, saying they all seem to come in equal amounts. Cars, motorcyclists, bicycles, and scooters all seem to have good, and bad drivers.

In the CBD/Wellington, I'd have to say people crossing without looking seem to be more hazardous than other cars/motorbikes. Buses, and Taxis are another hazard within the CBD too!


I was surprised, I am both and Audi AND BMW driver and find that I almost never seen car accidents involving them or have altercations thinking they are rude. My number is on my license plate and other than the odd call to make comment on my custom plate, I've never had a complaint.

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  # 653518 10-Jul-2012 14:00
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As for cyclists riding side by side, read the rode code they are entitled to by law unless passing. Just remember how wide most lanes are so if you can't get past 2 cyclists as its not safe then most likely you can't get through with one only. A lot squeeze through and sub consciously don't register the cyclists as a threat but wouldn't if it was two cars.
Suffice that the time most have to wait is measured in seconds not minutes and hours so if you are waiting try and put yourself in the others shoes.


this is true, but the road code also say if you are slowing down traffic, that you should pull over and let traffic pass in a safe place - all cyclist i see on the road - and i see a lot where i live, do not do this and there is no way you can pass them for 6+km. I see a lot of cars passing on corners due to cyclist not letting them pass in safe spots.

 
 
 
 


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  # 653531 10-Jul-2012 14:25
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@ bagheera understand what you are saying but a lot of the time it isn't practical either nor safe to do so. One could say the same about trucks, caravans, camper vans and slow drivers but they mostlyu don't and that is what gets our attention as we take it as an attcak against our right to our bit of road, its just people not thinking of others but also a lot just thinking of themselves.

6 km's is a long way I couldn't stand having a car/s behind for that long, actually hate them behind me anyway prefer them to go past then you can see them.

There is no justification for passing unsafely and certainly not the cyclists fault. I see it a lot when going up the Waitakere's, in some cases you can't pull over safely but as you say cars go past.

I think the easiest way is to all share with care and don't think the road is your private domain cyclists aren't allowed on footpaths (yes a lot do) so where do you go, even if they were allowed on footpaths how safe would it be with them being able to do 20-50kmh's.





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  # 653537 10-Jul-2012 14:34
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networkn: 
I was surprised, I am both and Audi AND BMW driver and find that I almost never seen car accidents involving them or have altercations thinking they are rude. My number is on my license plate and other than the odd call to make comment on my custom plate, I've never had a complaint.


I've had one major incident, of a BMW, Audi, and Jag driving racing up SH1, crossing over the centre line with oncoming traffic

But apart from that, not much :)

I know how frustrating one or two single incidents can be though, which cause people to generalise that all drivers of those cars must be bad

Being a motorcyclist as well as a car driver, cyclist and pedestrian.  I usually find myself defending myself, and my methods of transport, due to someone elses dangerous driving

I do find it quite frustrating when I see someone acting like an idiot, especially on a motorcycle.  Because I know if a friend or family member sees it, they'll immediately ask me why I still ride!




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  # 653541 10-Jul-2012 14:41
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Its easy to see what everyone else does wrong on the road, because it's quite simply them doing it different from you!!

Motorcyclists (and cyclists) are often tarnished with the bad-brush of poor road skills, and for many this maybe true, but when you're in a vehicle thats close to a few metres wide you don't have as much room to manoeuvre within your lane as you do on a vehicle thats a half-metre wide. And so when we see a two wheeler go around a corner, crossing the road and using the whole lane in the process, it just encourages us to think they're driving in a risky manner.

Of course there's no excuse for any vehicle driver to work beyond the road rules, and cross over yellow lines, pass on blind corners, or use excessive speed..... but alas we generally all do at some time.

As a motorcyclist I'm not really into 'lane-splitting' (travelling between lanes of cars in traffic), although I'll admit to having done it when traffic slows to below ~30kph (and it's a fine day). In terms of legality, I understand that if you're indicating then it's classed as an overtake, but I doubt this holds as any sort of defense in an accident or if you're doing this at high speed. I drive the car to work most days.

But really the driving standards in this country are pretty inconsistent, and poor. Generally there's little respect for road users of other vehicle types, and I put a lot of that down to poor driver education. I've heard that statistically when there's a car-v-(m)bike accident the person most likely at fault is the young female driver of the car, who simply 'didn't see the bike'. Further research, I believe, showed that these drivers were less aware of other types of vehicles (no bikes/m-bikes in the family) so simply weren't looking for them on the road.

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  # 653551 10-Jul-2012 14:52
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I also have a theory that when there is a lot going on as in a busy intersection or roundabout, that we sub consciously see threats and react but don't see pedestrians, cyclist etc as they don't rate as a risk to them. If you wear bright clothing then that is a bit differant and hence why I do .




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  # 653587 10-Jul-2012 15:33
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Motorbikes are fine, its those 50cc things that are the menace on the roads.




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  # 653597 10-Jul-2012 15:41
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richms: Motorbikes are fine, its those 50cc things that are the menace on the roads.


In my experience it's usually the opposite. 


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  # 653603 10-Jul-2012 15:54
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richms: Motorbikes are fine, its those 50cc things that are the menace on the roads.

I disagree. It's the way people ride them.
If you're on a moped/scooter and hug the gutter you're a danger to yourself and other motorists. You have to ride in the middle of the lane so you're visible and so others have to respect your space. It'll give you more options when things go to custard, and increase your ability and confidence too.

If the dude in the car behind has to ride a metre from your exhaust pipe.... they're the one with the problem.

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  # 653604 10-Jul-2012 15:56
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Except those 50cc monstrosities will always push to the front at lights and then they accelerate at the same pace as a ride on lawnmower. real bikes get moving fast enough to not hold up cars causing the problems.

They also struggle to hold a decent speed up a hill like symonds street so cant make their mind up if to be in the bus lane or the real lane.




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  # 653607 10-Jul-2012 15:58
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A few facts if I may.

Lane Splitting:
This is (generally regarded as) riding between two lanes of moving traffic going in the same direction, most commonly found on motorway rush hours when traffic grinds to a crawl.

This is perfectly legal in New Zealand provided that you are on the RIGHT side of a vehicle in the same lane, and you remain to the LEFT of the lane divider.  

If you cross over the lane divider so you are on the LEFT side of a vehicle in the same lane as you, then it's an illegal manouver.

Lane splitting is "safe" provided you do it sensibly, if you rocket blindly down a line of traffic with a massive relative speed, then that is not safe, if you go with a moderate relative speed and keep a good watch for the intentions of traffic, then you can do so safely.

It is not unusual for motorcycle police to split, and indeed they have even been known to lead "splitting convoys".

Unfortunately in New Zealand drivers tend to be fairly inconsiderate, with the mentality that "if I have to be going at 30k/h, so should you" so they sometimes don't position themselves in their lane so as to allow room for motorcyclists to split more easily.  Of course, this is stupid, since by allowing motorcyclists to remove themselves from the queue, you are SHORTENING the queue, REDUCING your waiting time.

Filtering:
This is (generally regarded as) riding to the head of a line of stopped traffic, eg, getting past a queue of cars up to the lights, which may or may not involve riding between two lanes.

Again, this is perfectly legal in New Zealand and is not bound by the "keep vehicle to your right" as lane splitting is, because you are legally entitled to pass any STOPPED vehicle on it's left.  It's also quite safe, if done carefully, at a slow speed, and with eyes peeled for opening doors, people turning into side traffic etc...

Sometimes people get irate when motorcyclists filter to the lights, I have even had somebody deliberately try to make me crash (caught up to me by driving at warp factor nine, pulled in front, and slammed on his brakes).  

This (becoming irate) is  of course stupid, a motorcyclist filtering to the head of the lights does not hold you up in the slightest, by the time you have got yourself into gear and moving when the lights change, we are half way down the road, power to weight - we have more of it!

And again, by allowing motorcyclists to remove themselves from the queue, you SHORTEN the queue, REDUCING your waiting time.

Bus Lanes:
Generalisation - Motorcyclists (and cyclists) are permitted to use almost all bus lanes and bus priority signals ("B" signal).  There are some exceptions, most common are motorway bus lanes, and "bus only" routes like the bus tunnel in Wellington.


In summary:
People who drive only cars often seem to have this strange idea that because THEY can't safely, physically or legally do something, that this applies also to two wheeled machines.  They forget that two wheeled machines have capabilities which are fundamentally different to their capabilities and that by HELPING us to use those capabilities (for example by moving to allow us more room to lane split) that they are also helping themselves by reducing queue lengths.





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  # 653613 10-Jul-2012 16:09
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sleemanj: 
In summary:
People who drive only cars often seem to have this strange idea that because THEY can't safely, physically or legally do something, that this applies also to two wheeled machines.  They forget that two wheeled machines have capabilities which are fundamentally different to their capabilities and that by HELPING us to use those capabilities (for example by moving to allow us more room to lane split) that they are also helping themselves by reducing queue lengths.



Nice attempt, but it's impossible to beat it into most cager's that they don't have a god given right to run us off the road if we dare to queue jump :-P






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  # 653616 10-Jul-2012 16:11
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pfftt....why let facts get in the way of a good argument




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  # 653617 10-Jul-2012 16:12
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I'd like to see the road code changed to acknowledge that a motorbike should be followed with greater than the arbitrary 2 second rule. A bike stops a LOT faster than a car :)

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  # 653620 10-Jul-2012 16:22
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networkn: I actually know a couple of riders, and perhaps they aren't typical, but they are so arrogant about the road and other drivers. They obviously complain bitterly about the treatment they get on the roads, but I certainly don't see as much of that as I do of rider stupidity.


I suggest that's because your in a car.  Go ride a motorbike for a year in Auckland or similar then come back to me.  I grew up on a farm so had my own bike since I was 9.  So far I can proudly say I've never had a road accident of any kind and I ride daily to and from work.

A car driver for the most part can (I'm not saying they all do) drive in a near stupour i.e.  just brake when the car in front of you does and for the most part just play follow the leader while they listen to the radio or thing about whats for dinner.  Do that on a motorcycle you'd be dead in no time.

I spend my whole time adjusting my position relative to other vehicles making sure to put myself out of the blindspot(s) of the car(s) beside me while identifying hazards of which they are vast from drivers who just aren't paying attention:

U-turns directly in front of you, people moving into your lane as they see a "gap" (ie don't notice your in that space or worse, think what they can do is partially move in next to the motorcyclist as they don't need all of that lane, then slow the trailing vehicle and "force a gap".  Right down to one idiot I remember completely forcing me off the road while laughing and he was wearing a suit and driving a fancy commodore.

But its only motorcyclists that are the idiots right?   Fact of the matter is, there will be idiot motorcyclists, idiot car drivers, idiot scooter riders, idiot cyclists, idiot pedestrians, idiot cats, other pets and maybe livestock.



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