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  # 654701 12-Jul-2012 17:22
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stevenz:
ArcticSilver: Well I have to say, as a Cyclist and car driver I believe it should be illegal for Motorcyclists to "Filter" or "Lane split".


So are you also against cyclists doing the same thing? And also stop them from breaking all the other various road laws that licensed vehicle users have to obey and that cyclists are also supposed to but frequently don't?

Agree. Pretty mush the whole ArticSilver post could be applied to cyclists (when they're in slowed rush-hour traffic)

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  # 654764 12-Jul-2012 19:19
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There is a big difference with cyclists, they have a cycle lane. There is not one for motorbikes. If motorbikes had their own lane I would have no problem with the above, but they do not.

Also to some of the above, I am trying to keep personal attacks out of this, I would appreciate that you do the same, this is a DISCUSSION after all. Heaven forbid I have a different opinion.

 
 
 
 


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  # 654773 12-Jul-2012 19:40
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ArcticSilver: There is a big difference with cyclists, they have a cycle lane. There is not one for motorbikes. If motorbikes had their own lane I would have no problem with the above, but they do not.

Also to some of the above, I am trying to keep personal attacks out of this, I would appreciate that you do the same, this is a DISCUSSION after all. Heaven forbid I have a different opinion.


I don't think anyone has got nasty here. Many disagree, and apart from one poster, the comments appear to me to be of competent riders. Your post does seem clearly anti motorcyclists.

"In my mind it is extremely inconsiderate. 
Filtering: 
  1. You get in the way when the light suddenly goes green.
How? We are ahead and left of the car. We are gone before the car goes
  1. You are unexpected (no driver expect's a bike coming up their side).
What about a bicycle riding there as normal?
  1. You could easily get blocked in, on 2 lane situations.
How? Your 2 or 3 lanes are parallel. We are waiting on your left, out of the way, not in front.
  1. Wing mirrors are a problem, not for you though I suppose!
Goes without saying that no bike rider wants to hit anyones wing mirror, if its tight, no sensible rider will play that game.
  1. You DO hold up traffic, it may be minor, but the front car has to deal with you and more often than not you slow thing's down, maybe not much, but you should take your place in the que like everyone else.
No. I am never in front of a car. I am on the left, just past your guard.
  1. What if a car is wanting to turn right/left? You get in the way when the lights go green.

Turn left, if I was filtering I won't in that case. Turn right?? Filtering is usually on the left, and for straight moving traffic typically 

Overall, you are doing some thing which inconsiderately holds people up (even if it is minor) and add's another unexpected element at the intersection which causes crashes. For me this is a big no no. "

Is it "extremely inconsiderate" or "inconsiderately holds people up (even if it is minor)"

I hear where you are coming from, but you possibly need to not compare idiots on wheels to responsible riders. Idiots use all manner of wheels, as do responsible users of the road. I see jerks on motorbikes, and bicycles, and cars.
 

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  # 654780 12-Jul-2012 19:55
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tdgeek:
Lane splitting i also disagree with. As regards filtering you clearly have not read any posts on that, or you seem to have a hate for motorcycles. None of your Filtering comments are fact. 


I have read all the posts. Please enlighten me as to what is wrong with what I have posted?

richms: Filtering is fine when they are proper bikes being ridden by people with a clue so get moving quickly. When the volume of bikes gets to the point where there are space issues etc at the front of the lights then perhaps it can be re-looked at, but for now, like with allowing them in the bus lanes etc there is no impact on car drivers worth mentioning.


I disagree. If a motorcyclist pulls in front of me/beside me at the light's I wait to be sure of what he intends to do before I go. This hold's me up, even if it is a minor hold up, in my mind this is one that should not have happened and hence he has jumped his place in the que. There will also be situations where there are multiple bikes, sure that may not happen often but this is still an issue.


Mark:
I don't agree with the majority of what you said, mainly because you are forgetting that before EVERY maneuver you do in a car you MUST check your mirrors and blindspots, if you don't do that then you are not aware of your surroundings and really shouldn't have earned your driving license.  Besides if you did pull out and hit a cyclist/motorcyclist who was filtering guess whose fault it is ?  Thats right yours!  Becuase you did not check to see if it was safe before you pulled out ... those funny mirrors are not decorational you know!

Also if you are turning then those funny orange flashy things must be activated (a good time BEFORE you perform your turn). Remember the motorcyclist has eyes too and is paying very close attention to where people are indicating they want to go and probably does not want to bash into you (him/her/it being only a bag of soft meat and your car being a bit more solid), they can also usually see further as they are sitting up higher.


I am constantly aware of my surroundings, but at times there are area's that require more attention. Let's say a kid runs out onto the road, I want the room to move around him if I have to. If I am focusing on this kid, I may not see a motorcyclist shoot up my blind spot. This is one of the issues. Though this issue is mainly applied to lane splitting.

Indicator's work, sure. Let's say a motorcyclist is "filtering" to the front of the que (on my left) and I am indicating to turn left. He is either going to get in the way of me turning when the lights go green, or he is going to get in the way of the driver behind me as he will try to pull in front after my turn/merge with the lane. Hence slowing down those that were ahead of him in the que.

Not to mention the times when the light goes green when the biker hasn't reached the front of the que. This again lead's to confusion and complications in taking off, again holding up and making the whole experience more dangerous than it needs to be.


Mark:

Admittedly you get twats in all camps who think they are superior and the rules don't apply to them, or they go way to fast, but 99% of bike riders are probably a far better road users than is the average.

Also for most bikes there is a good reason why the riders don't like sitting in a queue ... they get fecking hot!  You are sitting on top of the engine, most are air cooled (or a puny little radiator/fan) and sitting waiting in a long line of traffic the temperature of the bike and rider goes up, I know my GXSR600 used to ramp up really quick and it was state of the art at the time!

As a previous poster says .. to get a car license it would be good if people first had to learn how to cycle, then motorcycle so people learn awareness!


I agree there are bad people in both camps and don't forget, we are all human, we all make mistakes. That being said, I still think it is far too tempting to "risk it" with bikes at times, considering it may be technically legal.


tdgeek:
richms: Filtering is fine when they are proper bikes being ridden by people with a clue so get moving quickly. When the volume of bikes gets to the point where there are space issues etc at the front of the lights then perhaps it can be re-looked at, but for now, like with allowing them in the bus lanes etc there is no impact on car drivers worth mentioning.


Yes. If when filtering, there is a need to squeeze in between the cars on the right and the curb on the left, or cars are turning left, or there are no traffic lights, I don't filter. If I need to take a wee risk, or inconvenience a car, I will stay in the lane.


What if you cannot see the left turning indicator till your already filtering? What then? This is partly my problem, it is too tempting to risk it at the expense of others.


John2010:
Almost everything you say gives the impression that you do not check your mirrors or directly check any blind spot before you make a manouvre in your car. It also seems, from the problems you mention, that you do not indicate either.

Like many of these threads it seems to me that there are many drivers around who just do not like being overtaken (that is also apparant from their behaviours on the road) and believe that everyone else should follow them in the "queue" that they are "managing".


I do check my mirror's, indicate and drive to the conditions. Now personal issues aside.

The problem is, we cannot check our blind spot's 24/7, we only have 1 pair of eye's after all! It is not hard to miss some one sneaking up on your blind spot and even harder if they are on a small, snappy motorcycle and effectively appear there. If some thing is happening on the road in front and you as a driver need to swerve, the person on the motorcycle could get taken out. When I overtake or go around anyone I always level plenty of room, just in case. This is where lane splitting becomes a problem, there is not plenty of room. It restricts the car's open's to avoid disaster.


stevenz:
ArcticSilver: Well I have to say, as a Cyclist and car driver I believe it should be illegal for Motorcyclists to "Filter" or "Lane split".


So are you also against cyclists doing the same thing? And also stop them from breaking all the other various road laws that licensed vehicle users have to obey and that cyclists are also supposed to but frequently don't?


In some situations yes in others no. The big difference here (as I have said above) is that they have a cycle lane. If motorcyclists had a lane to themselves then it wouldn't be a problem.


vinnieg:
richms:
stevenz:
ArcticSilver: Well I have to say, as a Cyclist and car driver I believe it should be illegal for Motorcyclists to "Filter" or "Lane split".


So are you also against cyclists doing the same thing? And also stop them from breaking all the other various road laws that licensed vehicle users have to obey and that cyclists are also supposed to but frequently don't?


I dont support cyclists even being on the road. But no, they shouldnt do this as they cannot accelerate at the same rate as a typical car so do hold people up. Motorbikes dont cause those problems.


Also, cyclists undertake on the left hand side.  Where people don't look.  When turning left they cause more problems.  Especially if they stick in the largest blind spot aka passenger side rear window


There is a difference, the cyclists are in their own lane and the road rules apply as if you are crossing a lane. Hence drivers should check that lane before they turn. Motorcyclists are not allowed in this lane.


oxnsox:
stevenz:
ArcticSilver: Well I have to say, as a Cyclist and car driver I believe it should be illegal for Motorcyclists to "Filter" or "Lane split".


So are you also against cyclists doing the same thing? And also stop them from breaking all the other various road laws that licensed vehicle users have to obey and that cyclists are also supposed to but frequently don't?

Agree. Pretty mush the whole ArticSilver post could be applied to cyclists (when they're in slowed rush-hour traffic)


Again, cyclists have their own lane, motorcyclists do not.


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  # 654785 12-Jul-2012 20:12
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Hi ArcticSilver

I wont quote the above otherwse it gets too messy. In short though, the filtering you refer to is on the basis of getting in your way. A rider who filters when not enough room, in moving traffic or not caring who is turning is in the wrong. I can only assume this happens a lot to you, I've never noticed that when I ride or drive. Filtering as I see it, and do at times, is safe, is in no ones way, and I don't filter if the car up front is turning. If the line of cars is stationary, me riding up the inside is no different to a bicycle riding up the inside. I can see everyone indicators, as I am on their left. Again, seperate the poor rider/drivers from the others. Lane splitting on the other hand is madness. As is scooting in and out of lanes just cos your bike is quick. Thats inconsiderate.

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  # 654786 12-Jul-2012 20:12
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tdgeek:

I don't think anyone has got nasty here. Many disagree, and apart from one poster, the comments appear to me to be of competent riders. Your post does seem clearly anti motorcyclists.


I am not anti motorcyclists, not at all. I just do not like some of the ways they drive.

tdgeek:
  1. You get in the way when the light suddenly goes green.
How? We are ahead and left of the car. We are gone before the car goes

 


So you are blocking the pedestrian crossing area? Or are you blocking the front car from moving forward? To be in front of the front car you must be further up than you are allowed to be.


tdgeek:
  1. You are unexpected (no driver expect's a bike coming up their side).
What about a bicycle riding there as normal?
 


They are generally in their lane. Also they don't have a habit of just appearing.


tdgeek:
  1. You could easily get blocked in, on 2 lane situations.
How? Your 2 or 3 lanes are parallel. We are waiting on your left, out of the way, not in front.
 


On road's with multiple lanes I have seen motorcyclists go between the two lanes. Also some times one lane splits into a left turning and straight lane, hence you could get blocked.


tdgeek:
  1. Wing mirrors are a problem, not for you though I suppose!
Goes without saying that no bike rider wants to hit anyones wing mirror, if its tight, no sensible rider will play that game.
 


I agree, but some still risk it and get too close. It also doesn't help with the gap they funnel up is cramped. I have had my wing mirror hit before. Sure not every motor cyclist may do this, but there needs to be rules there for those that do.


tdgeek:
  1. You DO hold up traffic, it may be minor, but the front car has to deal with you and more often than not you slow thing's down, maybe not much, but you should take your place in the que like everyone else.
No. I am never in front of a car. I am on the left, just past your guard.
 


So you only hold up a driver turning left? I still argue that it adds to the complication, though this issue is the least of my worries.

tdgeek:
Turn left, if I was filtering I won't in that case. Turn right?? Filtering is usually on the left, and for straight moving traffic typically 

Overall, you are doing some thing which inconsiderately holds people up (even if it is minor) and add's another unexpected element at the intersection which causes crashes. For me this is a big no no. "

Is it "extremely inconsiderate" or "inconsiderately holds people up (even if it is minor)"

I hear where you are coming from, but you possibly need to not compare idiots on wheels to responsible riders. Idiots use all manner of wheels, as do responsible users of the road. I see jerks on motorbikes, and bicycles, and cars.
 


I do agree, in a few situations, with the right consideration it may be alright, but this would be the minority and allowing this would also allows those in the wrong to get away with it. It is also too easily for those who know better to do it anyway.


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  # 654787 12-Jul-2012 20:13
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tdgeek: Hi ArcticSilver

I wont quote the above otherwse it gets too messy. In short though, the filtering you refer to is on the basis of getting in your way. A rider who filters when not enough room, in moving traffic or not caring who is turning is in the wrong. I can only assume this happens a lot to you, I've never noticed that when I ride or drive. Filtering as I see it, and do at times, is safe, is in no ones way, and I don't filter if the car up front is turning. If the line of cars is stationary, me riding up the inside is no different to a bicycle riding up the inside. I can see everyone indicators, as I am on their left. Again, seperate the poor rider/drivers from the others. Lane splitting on the other hand is madness. As is scooting in and out of lanes just cos your bike is quick. Thats inconsiderate.


Well then we mostly agree. Part of my argument is that it is far too easy and tempting to do it anyway. Especially if it is technically legal.

 
 
 
 


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  # 654791 12-Jul-2012 20:27
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ArcticSilver: 

tdgeek:
  1. You get in the way when the light suddenly goes green.
How? We are ahead and left of the car. We are gone before the car goes

 


So you are blocking the pedestrian crossing area? Or are you blocking the front car from moving forward? To be in front of the front car you must be further up than you are allowed to be.


I'm not on the crossing, close to it.I cant block a car as I'm nowhere near it. 
 

tdgeek:
  1. You are unexpected (no driver expect's a bike coming up their side).
What about a bicycle riding there as normal?
 


They are generally in their lane. Also they don't have a habit of just appearing.

If a bicycle rides down the left side, they dont just appear? When I filter its slow, I'm not zooming up like a madman. Needless to say, if it's busy with pedestrians, bicycles, or little room, I don't.
 

tdgeek:
  1. You could easily get blocked in, on 2 lane situations.
How? Your 2 or 3 lanes are parallel. We are waiting on your left, out of the way, not in front.
 


On road's with multiple lanes I have seen motorcyclists go between the two lanes. Also some times one lane splits into a left turning and straight lane, hence you could get blocked.

Thats lane splitting, filterng is on the left of the cars, between the cars and the curb.


tdgeek:
  1. Wing mirrors are a problem, not for you though I suppose!
Goes without saying that no bike rider wants to hit anyones wing mirror, if its tight, no sensible rider will play that game.
 


I agree, but some still risk it and get too close. It also doesn't help with the gap they funnel up is cramped. I have had my wing mirror hit before. Sure not every motor cyclist may do this, but there needs to be rules there for those that do.

I agree fully. If there is plenty of room, and no one is getting in anyones way, and as my bike is quick enough to be gone, no one is inconvenienced, at least by me. Idiots on 2 wheels, thats another story


tdgeek:
  1. You DO hold up traffic, it may be minor, but the front car has to deal with you and more often than not you slow thing's down, maybe not much, but you should take your place in the que like everyone else.
No. I am never in front of a car. I am on the left, just past your guard.
 


So you only hold up a driver turning left? I still argue that it adds to the complication, though this issue is the least of my worries.

I don't filter if the fron car is turning, that is inconsiderate.

tdgeek:
Turn left, if I was filtering I won't in that case. Turn right?? Filtering is usually on the left, and for straight moving traffic typically 

Overall, you are doing some thing which inconsiderately holds people up (even if it is minor) and add's another unexpected element at the intersection which causes crashes. For me this is a big no no. "

Is it "extremely inconsiderate" or "inconsiderately holds people up (even if it is minor)"

I hear where you are coming from, but you possibly need to not compare idiots on wheels to responsible riders. Idiots use all manner of wheels, as do responsible users of the road. I see jerks on motorbikes, and bicycles, and cars.
 


I do agree, in a few situations, with the right consideration it may be alright, but this would be the minority and allowing this would also allows those in the wrong to get away with it. It is also too easily for those who know better to do it anyway.



 I have no desire to p*ss off a driver, or put myself or anyone else, or my bike in harms way. Thats how I ride, I expect others to drive/ride properly as well. All in all, I think we agree, the issue is inconsiderate riders, but not all of us are. On two wheels, we have a greater need for safety, whether thats crawling up on the left at a red light, or riding at 50k or open road.  Thats why I feel that lane splitting is madness.


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  # 654825 12-Jul-2012 23:01
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I dont know why so many people care its hardly your life they are playing with if they ride like a bat out of hell.
Few years back when I was on 2 wheels I hardly cared what other road users thought of me lane splitting over taking 10 cars at a time, all I had in mind was a destination and wanted to have as much fun as possible getting there I took relatively low risks never pushed beyond what I considered I could handel, used the bike everyday and did not crash ever.

I miss riding..

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  # 654840 13-Jul-2012 00:33
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Stan: I dont know why so many people care its hardly your life they are playing with if they ride like a bat out of hell.
Few years back when I was on 2 wheels I hardly cared what other road users thought of me lane splitting over taking 10 cars at a time, all I had in mind was a destination and wanted to have as much fun as possible getting there I took relatively low risks never pushed beyond what I considered I could handel, used the bike everyday and did not crash ever.

I miss riding..


This is exactly the attitude I hate.

Your wrong, it IS our lives that you/they are playing around with when riding like a bad out of hell. You could easily seriously injure some one, if not kill them. The faster you go the more likely you are to kill them as well, even if they are in a car!



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  # 654849 13-Jul-2012 01:08
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ArcticSilver:
Stan: I dont know why so many people care its hardly your life they are playing with if they ride like a bat out of hell.
Few years back when I was on 2 wheels I hardly cared what other road users thought of me lane splitting over taking 10 cars at a time, all I had in mind was a destination and wanted to have as much fun as possible getting there I took relatively low risks never pushed beyond what I considered I could handel, used the bike everyday and did not crash ever.

I miss riding..


This is exactly the attitude I hate.

Your wrong, it IS our lives that you/they are playing around with when riding like a bad out of hell. You could easily seriously injure some one, if not kill them. The faster you go the more likely you are to kill them as well, even if they are in a car!





Unlikely the vast majority of car V bike (or even just bike)crashes result in car driver walking away but not the motorcycle rider.
There is always a risk to driving/riding on the road everyone takes risks every day one way or another.

However I do respect your opinion.

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  # 654907 13-Jul-2012 09:50
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ArcticSilver: ...I have read all the posts. Please enlighten me as to what is wrong with what I have posted?...

...I disagree. If a motorcyclist pulls in front of me/beside me at the light's I wait to be sure of what he intends to do before I go. This hold's me up, even if it is a minor hold up, in my mind this is one that should not have happened and hence he has jumped his place in the que...


...Indicator's work, sure. Let's say a motorcyclist is "filtering" to the front of the que (on my left) and I am indicating to turn left. He is either going to get in the way of me turning when the lights go green, or he is going to get in the way of the driver behind me as he will try to pull in front after my turn/merge with the lane. Hence slowing down those that were ahead of him in the que.


I won't go through all your comments except:

You make lots of mentions of the "queue". The motorcyclist is allowed to use either the lane beside you or room in your lane to filter up so if there is a concept of a "queue" his place in it is where he can move up to safely and within the code. Anything different is a "queue" in your imagination.

You use a lot of references to your being held up - well that is life, others have rights too and sometimes those get in the way of what we think as being a perfect unimpeded life for ourselves. In the end I rarely find I am held up by mo'bikes as they can accelerate away from the intersection much faster than I can even though I drive a reasonably powerful car. Perhaps many mo'bikes would have the same complaint as you if they were not allowed to filter up - they would be held up by your slower accelerating car.

In the other snip above you are using an argument about filtering that is incorrect. A mo'bike is not allowed to pass you on the left at an intersection if you are indicating a left turn even if you are stopped. Now if it was that you were not at the front of the line of stopped vehicles and were indicating a left turn then I suspect no one (except for road ragey types) are going to be upset if a mo'bike does go past on the left to a position where he will be clear of the left turning vehicle when the traffic moves off. But that said he should not be in a poaition to impede the left turn of another vehicle. So your point has nothing to do with filtering, it is only a matter of the mo'biker not complying with the code.

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  # 654916 13-Jul-2012 10:09
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John2010:
ArcticSilver: ...I have read all the posts. Please enlighten me as to what is wrong with what I have posted?...

...I disagree. If a motorcyclist pulls in front of me/beside me at the light's I wait to be sure of what he intends to do before I go. This hold's me up, even if it is a minor hold up, in my mind this is one that should not have happened and hence he has jumped his place in the que...


...Indicator's work, sure. Let's say a motorcyclist is "filtering" to the front of the que (on my left) and I am indicating to turn left. He is either going to get in the way of me turning when the lights go green, or he is going to get in the way of the driver behind me as he will try to pull in front after my turn/merge with the lane. Hence slowing down those that were ahead of him in the que.


I won't go through all your comments except:

You make lots of mentions of the "queue". The motorcyclist is allowed to use either the lane beside you or room in your lane to filter up so if there is a concept of a "queue" his place in it is where he can move up to safely and within the code. Anything different is a "queue" in your imagination. 


What a concept... 

From my old days on top of a motorbike (and I used to ride in the mid 80s), motorcycles had to ride IN THE LANE, using the same space as a car would use.

Unless things are different now, "The motorcyclist is allowed to use either the lane beside you or room in your lane to filter up" sounds like there's a change somewhere that allows motorcyclist to sneak between lanes, and between cards and sidewalks.

Is that true, or just people thinking they can get away with anything?





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  # 654930 13-Jul-2012 10:21
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freitasm: What a concept... 

From my old days on top of a motorbike (and I used to ride in the mid 80s), motorcycles had to ride IN THE LANE, using the same space as a car would use.

Unless things are different now, "The motorcyclist is allowed to use either the lane beside you or room in your lane to filter up" sounds like there's a change somewhere that allows motorcyclist to sneak between lanes, and between cards and sidewalks.

Is that true, or just people thinking they can get away with anything?



Yes used to be that in my time too Mauricio but it has changed. Filtering and splitting is legal.

EDIT: Just noticed the "sneaking", splitting and filtering has to be done safely so knocking a car on the right wing mirror off and at the same time elbowing a pedestrian is not allowed Wink.

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  # 654940 13-Jul-2012 10:36
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  elbowing a pedestrian is not allowed Wink.


Oh. I'll have to re read the road rules... 

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