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2459 posts

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  # 664841 31-Jul-2012 19:04
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Technofreak:

Unless unnatural means are used, procreation between man and woman is the only way that the human race can survive.  With very few exceptions throughout nature, a male and female are required for the propagation of that species. For 1000’s of years and in nearly all cultures, the formalisation of the partnership between a man and woman for the purpose of procreation, has been a marriage ceremony of some description, be it a religious or non religious ceremony. Our current laws reflect fundamental reason for marriage, i.e. the formalisation of a partnership which has the aim/possibility of producing off spring. 

No matter which way you want to look at it a gay couple cannot conceive children without unnatural input.  That reason alone in my opinion excludes them from the rite of marriage.  This isn’t discrimination it's a fact of life.

One argument I hear as a reason for gay marriage is to allow for adoption.  While there is no doubt that gay couples can exceptionally be loving parents I believe that every child deserves both a loving mother and a loving father to aid in their development and mentoring.  Boys need a father figure and a mother figure and girls like wise. Two women as a couple or two men as a couple cannot do this. 

I respect a gay couples right to live as a loving couple just as a man and woman do in marriage.  The Civil Union Bill gives them legal formalisation of their partnership in the same manner marriage does.  I don’t see why there is a need to change the laws on marriage to allow gay couples to marry, it won’t enable them to conceive and bear children.  What is being achieved with this bill?



As I mentioned above, we don't ban straight couples who can't or won't conceive from getting married, now do we? According to you, we should start! 

So when can we expect you to make marriage for fertile only opposite sex couples?

Also, since children require a mother and a mother, will you also be campaigning to ban divorce? 
If not, will the state then be taking children from solo mothers/fathers? Including widows?

I eagerly await your campaigning on these issues!

 

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  # 664847 31-Jul-2012 19:05
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surfisup1000:
CamH: I do not want to have a gay marriage and therefore will not get one.

However if Jim Bob and John want to get married because they are in love then go right ahead. None of my business who you can and can't love.

If some religious organisation/cult/whatever doesn't believe it it.... Well, just don't associate with them. I certainly don't - If you are really that closed minded then I'm not going to have anything to do with ya.


So, close minded = anyone who doesn't agree with you. 
I find that insulting. 



Where did he say close mindedness? Or are you just kneejerking that response because you know you're wrong?


 
 
 
 


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  # 664854 31-Jul-2012 19:12
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tardtasticx:   
We're talking about the here and now, not whats happened, not whats going to happen 1000 years from now, because these laws do not accurately reflect the views of the majority of the New Zealand population. 


Slightly off topic but I cannot agree entirely.  I take from your comments that you think the laws should reflect the views of the majority of the population. In some case I might agree with you but not as a blanket statement.

Many laws are there to protect us from ourselves, and now I'm not talking about the Gay Marriage bill.

Let's say for example the majority of the population thought is was OK to drive everywhere at 200kph that it would be acceptable to change the law to allow this?  Of course not.

Might isn't necessarily right.  So justifying a law change solely on popular opinion is not a strong argument in my opinion.




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  # 664855 31-Jul-2012 19:13
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Technofreak:
jofizz: 

Is this true? There is no legal requirement to produce or want offspring. I don't think this conclusion is valid.

Cheers,
Joseph


There is no legal requirement, I never said there was any legal requirement to produce or want off spring, my point was that is the generally expected outcome and our laws reflected that.  There is no way a gay couple can conceive naturally.  Therefore I consider my conclusion entirely valid.


I consider your conclusion invalid, because among people I know, that's not a generally expected outcome.
Hell, i've had friends have kids WITHOUT being married.

So are you telling my married friends are somehow "wrong" for not breeding after getting married? 





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  # 664857 31-Jul-2012 19:18
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Technofreak:
tardtasticx:   
We're talking about the here and now, not whats happened, not whats going to happen 1000 years from now, because these laws do not accurately reflect the views of the majority of the New Zealand population. 


Slightly off topic but I cannot agree entirely.  I take from your comments that you think the laws should reflect the views of the majority of the population. In some case I might agree with you but not as a blanket statement.

Many laws are there to protect us from ourselves, and now I'm not talking about the Gay Marriage bill.

Let's say for example the majority of the population thought is was OK to drive everywhere at 200kph that it would be acceptable to change the law to allow this?  Of course not.

Might isn't necessarily right.  So justifying a law change solely on popular opinion is not a strong argument in my opinion.


Thats a bit silly, i understand your reasoning though. Obviously they wont allow the law to change to allow us all to drive around at that speed (not that everyone listens to it anyway with the amount of crashes every day) 

But for reasonable ones such as this, where theres no harm being done to to the general population, whats stopping the govt. listening to the voice of the nation? 




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  # 664858 31-Jul-2012 19:18
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Technofreak:

Might isn't necessarily right.  So justifying a law change solely on popular opinion is not a strong argument in my opinion.


No, laws should be about freedom and stopping people from violating your rights and causing you harm.
Equal Marriage doesn't harm anyone, so there for it should be legal.


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  # 664878 31-Jul-2012 19:33
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kyhwana2:
Technofreak:

Might isn't necessarily right. ?So justifying a law change solely on popular opinion is not a strong argument in my opinion.


No, laws should be about freedom and stopping people from violating your rights and causing you harm.
Equal Marriage doesn't harm anyone, so there it should be legal.



This sums it up nicely for me. Whether Joe and John or Lisa and Leanne get hitched, has no effect on my or anyone else's hetero marriage.

If you're against gay marriage, don't get gay married.

Cheers.
Joseph

 
 
 
 


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  # 664883 31-Jul-2012 19:44
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Technofreak: Since the question has been asked, here’s my 20c worth which may well be a minority view point.  I’ve never been known for standing back and not saying something I feel needs to be said, no matter what others may be espousing.  Here goes.

Unless unnatural means are used, procreation between man and woman is the only way that the human race can survive.  With very few exceptions throughout nature, a male and female are required for the propagation of that species. For 1000’s of years and in nearly all cultures, the formalisation of the partnership between a man and woman for the purpose of procreation, has been a marriage ceremony of some description, be it a religious or non religious ceremony. Our current laws reflect fundamental reason for marriage, i.e. the formalisation of a partnership which has the aim/possibility of producing off spring. 

No matter which way you want to look at it a gay couple cannot conceive children without unnatural input.  That reason alone in my opinion excludes them from the rite of marriage.  This isn’t discrimination it's a fact of life.

One argument I hear as a reason for gay marriage is to allow for adoption.  While there is no doubt that gay couples can exceptionally be loving parents I believe that every child deserves both a loving mother and a loving father to aid in their development and mentoring.  Boys need a father figure and a mother figure and girls like wise. Two women as a couple or two men as a couple cannot do this. 

I respect a gay couples right to live as a loving couple just as a man and woman do in marriage.  The Civil Union Bill gives them legal formalisation of their partnership in the same manner marriage does.  I don’t see why there is a need to change the laws on marriage to allow gay couples to marry, it won’t enable them to conceive and bear children.  What is being achieved with this bill?


Yes I think this fairly represents my own views on the matter. 

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  # 664885 31-Jul-2012 19:45
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I am in two minds about this.

Perhaps I was raised too traditionally but I think marriage should stay between a man and a woman and I don't know that the government should redefine it.

However I do not agree that a civil union should have any less rights than marriage. 

Eh its going to happen either way I seriously doubt it wont pass so might as well get used to it....

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  # 664886 31-Jul-2012 19:49
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I agree with same sex marriage. I'm not gay, but married.

If I was gay, I would want to be married as that is a more meaningful, emotional state of mind than a civil union. And I expect many gays/lesbians would still want to be "married" even if civil union achieved exactly the same rights.

Sam, what do you think?

Tony

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  # 664888 31-Jul-2012 19:52
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kyhwana2:
Technofreak:
jofizz: 

Is this true? There is no legal requirement to produce or want offspring. I don't think this conclusion is valid.

Cheers,
Joseph


There is no legal requirement, I never said there was any legal requirement to produce or want off spring, my point was that is the generally expected outcome and our laws reflected that.  There is no way a gay couple can conceive naturally.  Therefore I consider my conclusion entirely valid.


I consider your conclusion invalid, because among people I know, that's not a generally expected outcome.
Hell, i've had friends have kids WITHOUT being married.

So are you telling my married friends are somehow "wrong" for not breeding after getting married? 




I believe in the ideal world, potential parents would show commitment by way of marriage to each other before having children. I know there are plenty of divorces and I imagine cases of families with no marriage which are working just fine, but coming from a LONG line of family with children born out of wedlock including myself, I think my kids are in a more stable environment than any of the rest of my family were because my wife and I are married.


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  # 664893 31-Jul-2012 20:07
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Honestly I couldn't care less. If people care about each other and it doesn't do anyone else any harm them what right has anyone got to tell them what their relationship should be called.

One thing I do find really interesting is how people who believe in free rights to choose how they run their business / use corporal punishment on their family etc tend to get very uneasy around others choosing how their relationships should be defined. I find it quite strange and inconsistent but that's just my opinion.



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  # 664898 31-Jul-2012 20:11
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tdgeek: I agree with same sex marriage. I'm not gay, but married.

If I was gay, I would want to be married as that is a more meaningful, emotional state of mind than a civil union. And I expect many gays/lesbians would still want to be "married" even if civil union achieved exactly the same rights.

Sam, what do you think?

Tony


I assume you're meaning me lol.

I feel exactly the same. If we have had the same rights with both, I'd still feel left out because we want to actually be able to call our partner our husband or wife like everyone else.

I have friends who call their same sex partners their husband and wife because they know they're entitled to it like everyone else, even if the law doesnt say so. 

Its completely childish if you ask me. Religion didn't invent marriage, so stop using it as an excuse to decide the extent of someones love. 




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  # 664905 31-Jul-2012 20:18
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my view is that I have no right to dictate my views on marriage on to anyone else, neither does any other group have that right.

I don't believe in marriage, that is my view and I expect it to be respected, the same way as I respect other right to marry, be it gay or straight, it is the individuals choice.

A very good friend of mine was fundamental in getting civil unions legalised for gays, I respect his fight and his right to "marry" his boyfriend, and to be honest I think they are the nicest couple I have ever met, gay or straight.

I would have thought that in NZ we'd be over gay-bashing and realize there is not difference between gay and straight.

BTW this is not an inditement on any previous post as I haven't read them all!


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  # 664908 31-Jul-2012 20:19
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I believe it's time for gay people to have their share of suffering by getting married XD It's really unfair that only straight people have the right to ridiculously fudge up their entire lives by getting married.

Sign here, here and there. There you go...

My vote is for allowing everybody to choose to get married or stay happily single.

Now and once this bill passes, you need to understand one thing about marriage. It's the leading cause of divorce. Good luck guys.

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