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15283 posts

Uber Geek


  # 734988 19-Dec-2012 15:28
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jfanning: 

Nothing like a late reply...

NZ didn't change the rules, Visa and Mastercard, and the Banks did


I don't believe that is the case. I believe credit card companies have always charged businesses a % fee of the transaction. Previously however I believe the CC companies prevented businesses charging extra for CC payments. This is why many businesses used to offer a discount for cash, which was essentially the same thing as cahrging more for CC payemnts. Just worded differently. But I believe changes to the laws now allow retailers to charge extra for cc payments. However there is requirement for business to charge more for CC transactions, it is purely their choice. They can instead chose to absorb them as part of their running costs.

192 posts

Master Geek


  # 734991 19-Dec-2012 15:31
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sleemanj:
dannyres: How hard can it be for vendors (or an intermediary) to offer plain-old bank transfers, with some form of reference as a payment option?  Of course they would need to maintain bank accounts at each major bank so that payments could be verified in real-time (am I correct in saying that all NZ banks have real-time transfers within their number range?).  It wouldn't be as smooth as paying by credit card, but it would mean we could do away with POLi...


Getting automated downloadable feeds of your account transactions from the bank is an exercise in extreme expense at least for most banks.  Only very large organisations need apply is my understanding.

Also, too many people enter an incorrect reference, or incorrect amount, or incorrect account.

These reasons are why POLi exists, if it wasn't, then yes, your idea would work just fine.



Good point.  If the banks agreed to get on board (basically impossible) it could be as simple as having the banks support special links that go directly to the payment page (once logged in) and fill in the relevant details which can be checked by the user before authorising the payment. 

When I was in Australia I saw BPay mentioned all over the place.  Does that support this type of scenario as an alternative to credit cards?

 
 
 
 


15283 posts

Uber Geek


  # 734993 19-Dec-2012 15:34
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sleemanj: 
Also, too many people enter an incorrect reference, or incorrect amount, or incorrect account.





The IRD seem to manage it though. Businesses can also become preauthorized with banks, with prefilled in fields, and this service is free. However I have found that banks can set this up incorrectly from their end, which is very frustrating to sort out. That is possibly though why some businesses want customers to setup direct debits, rather than direct credits, where the customer can make an error.


I would have thought all the banks could have sorted out some system, in the form of some standard. But then again that could erode credit card use. Perhaps it is something the NZ Reserve Bank should be doing, as they look after all banks in NZ.

cisconz
1222 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 734995 19-Dec-2012 15:40
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sleemanj:
dannyres: How hard can it be for vendors (or an intermediary) to offer plain-old bank transfers, with some form of reference as a payment option?  Of course they would need to maintain bank accounts at each major bank so that payments could be verified in real-time (am I correct in saying that all NZ banks have real-time transfers within their number range?).  It wouldn't be as smooth as paying by credit card, but it would mean we could do away with POLi...


Getting automated downloadable feeds of your account transactions from the bank is an exercise in extreme expense at least for most banks.  Only very large organisations need apply is my understanding.

Also, too many people enter an incorrect reference, or incorrect amount, or incorrect account.

These reasons are why POLi exists, if it wasn't, then yes, your idea would work just fine.



https://somebank.co.nz/internetbanking/pay.aspx?acc=00-0000-0000000-00&ref="somepayment"&to="A Buisness Limited"&value="123.45"

Bank then prompts for login and to confirm "Are you sure you wish to pay A Buisness Limited $123.45 with Reference "somepayment"




Hmmmm


1297 posts

Uber Geek


  # 734997 19-Dec-2012 15:42
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cisconz:
Bank then prompts for login and to confirm "Are you sure you wish to pay A Buisness Limited $123.45 with Reference "somepayment"


I suggested something like that back on page 1 or 2 I think :-)




---
James Sleeman
I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...


710 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 734999 19-Dec-2012 15:44
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Also funny that I can use fixed Internet Banking configurations to make routine payments to my Power Company, my Telco(s) and they can all manage to parse their own bank statements and cross-reference the payments accurately.  I think it might mean people are capable of putting in reference numbers correctly!

Also the likes of TradeMe transactions go on this way on a daily basis. I'm not sure what's so hard about it - except perhaps the need to tie up admin staff chasing down the oddball ones. But most companies who accept internet banking or direct credit transactions already have a person doing this.

Of course, the more automated it can be, the less human interaction is required, making the whole thing cheaper, I suppose POLi is meant to provide for both this level of automation,and also some assurance on the part of the receiver that the transaction has actually taken place, without waiting for 'overnight transactions'... so all we need is for the banks to start talking to eachother in realtime instead of simply nightly?

With IP links now carrying most inter-bank transactions I don't see this as being difficult. 10 or 15 years ago when mutual dialup type tech was possibly involved, perhaps the story was different.




No signature to see here, move along...

192 posts

Master Geek


  # 735000 19-Dec-2012 15:44
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cisconz:
sleemanj:
dannyres: How hard can it be for vendors (or an intermediary) to offer plain-old bank transfers, with some form of reference as a payment option?  Of course they would need to maintain bank accounts at each major bank so that payments could be verified in real-time (am I correct in saying that all NZ banks have real-time transfers within their number range?).  It wouldn't be as smooth as paying by credit card, but it would mean we could do away with POLi...


Getting automated downloadable feeds of your account transactions from the bank is an exercise in extreme expense at least for most banks.  Only very large organisations need apply is my understanding.

Also, too many people enter an incorrect reference, or incorrect amount, or incorrect account.

These reasons are why POLi exists, if it wasn't, then yes, your idea would work just fine.



https://somebank.co.nz/internetbanking/pay.aspx?acc=00-0000-0000000-00&ref="somepayment"&to="A Buisness Limited"&value="123.45"

Bank then prompts for login and to confirm "Are you sure you wish to pay A Buisness Limited $123.45 with Reference "somepayment"


Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking.  Easy to implement on both ends (though clicking any link to a bank is potentially a bad idea).

 
 
 
 


8 posts

Wannabe Geek


  # 735001 19-Dec-2012 15:45
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nickb800:
sbiddle: I actually meant what companies are using the new POLi for payments, I was keen to look at it.


Looks like The Warehouse do according to http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=48&topicid=107374&page_no=6#734926 (im guessing that it is the new POLi based on the non-functional links)

The new POLi is apparently their improved system that doesn't allow them access to your information?

If that is the case, then sorry, but it's still suspect. My example here:
http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=48&topicid=107374&page_no=6#734926
was using the POLi checkout on The Warehouse website, and it is still all hosted on the POLi website.

360 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 735004 19-Dec-2012 15:49
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Of course, the more automated it can be, the less human interaction is required, making the whole thing cheaper, I suppose POLi is meant to provide for both this level of automation,and also some assurance on the part of the receiver that the transaction has actually taken place, without waiting for 'overnight transactions'... so all we need is for the banks to start talking to eachother in realtime instead of simply nightly?



it at least 5 time a day now days, not over night.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6688633/Bank-to-bank-fund-transfers-speed-up

192 posts

Master Geek


  # 735007 19-Dec-2012 15:53
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bagheera:


Of course, the more automated it can be, the less human interaction is required, making the whole thing cheaper, I suppose POLi is meant to provide for both this level of automation,and also some assurance on the part of the receiver that the transaction has actually taken place, without waiting for 'overnight transactions'... so all we need is for the banks to start talking to eachother in realtime instead of simply nightly?



it at least 5 time a day now days, not over night.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6688633/Bank-to-bank-fund-transfers-speed-up


I often still have to wait overnight for payments between banks, even when I make the payment early morning.  I guess some banks are not participating?

879 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 735008 19-Dec-2012 15:54
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Guys we use it our website. Here's a test link if you want to have a look at how it works. Don't complete the process though, unless you want to give me $! :)

http://www.hyspecs.co.nz//2012/december/test/

8 posts

Wannabe Geek


  # 735009 19-Dec-2012 15:58
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myopinion: Guys we use it our website. Here's a test link if you want to have a look at how it works. Don't complete the process though, unless you want to give me $! :)

http://www.hyspecs.co.nz//2012/december/test/

This is not secure. This is (again), the same as my previous example where the POLi website pretends to be including your bank's login page, but is actually just recreating it, hosted on their own website. You are sending your information to POLi.

I can upload screen shots showing you this if you require, but it is the exact same situation as what was found on The Warehouse's website (posted about on page 6).

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=48&topicid=107374&page_no=6#734926

879 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 735010 19-Dec-2012 16:00
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Our page is insecure that's right but does that matter? The information getting sent is only a dollar amount and a reference number?

8 posts

Wannabe Geek


  # 735012 19-Dec-2012 16:02
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myopinion: Our page is insecure that's right but does that matter? The information getting sent is only a dollar amount and a reference number?


In order to send you that $ amount POLi requires that I log in to my banking, I have to fill in my username, and my password - the form I am doing this on is hosted on POLi's website. This means that I am sending POLi my username and password. I am not saying that they store this information, or do anything unlawful with it - I am simply stating that I am sending my details to a third party with no affiliation with my bank.

3115 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 735015 19-Dec-2012 16:03
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RedJungle: POLi released a statement to customers:
----------------------------------------------

POLi Payments NZ - Advisory Notification
Issue Date: 19/12/2012
Summary

Merco response to ASB security advisory warning to their customer’s re the POLi Payment Service.     When?

Immediate
 
Details
This notification is to bring to your attention recent actions by ASB Bank that relate to the POLi Payment Service. ASB Bank has issued a security advisory warning to their customers not to use the POLi payment service. You can see this advisory on https://www.asb.co.nz/story24389.aspx

Merco and the POLi software provider Centricom strongly refute the claims and statements made by ASB Bank and will be seeking legal advice among other measures.

Please be rest assured that your customers personal information is secure with POLi.To clarify some concerns raised by ASB directly:

• At no point do we capture the customer usernames or passwords
• ASB has never taken the opportunity to audit the POLi software

The POLi payment Service has been operating in Australasia since 2007 and currently processes millions of transactions per year. To our knowledge no customer has had any of their private information compromised, or suffered a loss of any kind as a result of using the POLi payment service.

As a gesture of good faith to ASB Bank we have reverted to POLi2 for ASB transactions as we seek to engage with ASB Bank management to resolve the issue. Thank you for your continued Support of the POLi service and we will advise you of developments as they occur.

Mike Stobbs, CEO Merco Ltd


Hah!  I bet the legal advice is "I would be more concerned about the legal advice ASB is getting - since you're fraudulently passing yourself off as them and using their trademarks to get customers to give you their credentials".

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