Comparing Kids Lunches

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453 posts

Ultimate Geek

# 688739 20-Sep-2012 12:05

DonGould:
networkn:
Is the problem here that we're not properly looking after the our DPB parents?

You must be joking! Surely.

No, when compared to the help that Paul Bennett got, it seemed like a very valid question to me.

A lot of emphasis seems to be based on "This is what Paula Bennett got so it should be available to everyone". Whilst I am sympathetic to your thinking, it is also the past as a number things actually are. There has been a lot of change over the last 20-30 years, much of it needed, but also much of it emotional and not really thought through. If things were really better in the past should we just dial the clock back 100 years? That's disingenuous to your argument but it highlights my point in an extreme way.

However, seeing the type of people that Paula Bennett is, I somehow have the feeling that if she didn't have that support then she still would have "picked herself up" in a different way.

I genuinely believe we've never looked after our DPB parents well. It seems to be mainly "lets throw money at the problem and it'll go away". In the process we've allowed parents to abdicate personal responsibility and forget what the DPB was about in the first place. It was never intended to be a longterm "raise your child until they leave home" benefit.

So why don't we say "These are the skills you require to be a parent and a member of society and we'll help you get there". If they choose not to come along for the journey that is there choice.

And for those that say teaching parents how to look after their children will take too long and we need a solution now, then why even bother sending these kids to school, if teaching does indeed take too long. We send them to school because that is the better long term solution.

This is a problem that has been around too long for it to be fixed with a magic bullet. Consequently because it has been around so long any solution will need to be introduced in stages. Most people can't handle change. But to bury our heads in the sand and refuse to look at the greater problem because it is too hard makes for a tragedy.

DonGould

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# 688741 20-Sep-2012 12:06

BraaiGuy:
DonGould:
networkn: I am not in the least bit concerned the message it sends, whilst they are on a benefit at the expense of the tax payer, and they are not acting responsibly, then they can be offended all they like, or opt out of receiving a benefit.

My sister in law was married and is now on the DPB, bringing up a 6 year old on her own with no help from the father. It's not her fault. Is this the message you'd send to her?

The father is still responsible for his kid no matter what. Its sad that he has taken the no care attitude. It seems to be the done thing these days with many dads in NZ.

Personally I'm torn, very torn.

On one hand I couldn't agree with you more. I really just couldn't agree with you more.

Every weekend I have the opportunity to spend the day riding in this...

Seems cool ea?!

One of these looks cool to me as well!!! How about you?

However in both cases I choose not to while I've got a son who can't look after himself and depends on his mother and I.

Sadly the same can't be said for the guy riding the bike in the photo above, her husband.

But read the article... http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/hutt-valley/6805202/Killed-biker-a-clown-with-big-heart

The guy was on a charity ride raising funds for St Johns and was a profession bike rider for 10 years (working for New Zealand Police).

He wasn't speeding down a back country road, piss as a nute or flying high on drugs while his kid starves.

My Point

But my point was that we shouldn't be judging DPB mums and imposing blanket conditions on them because of others.

Many of these parents are in the position they're in because of situations beyond their control, truly beyond their control.

As a state, we need to focus carefully on fixing problems with very soft hands and not making rash political gestures which make voters rise up in excitement but drive people who's choice is taken away, into the ground.

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DonGould

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# 688744 20-Sep-2012 12:09

networkn: I can't imagine a situation whereby if my wife and I split up, where my kids would not be still considered 50% my responsibility,

Sadly I can.

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Klipspringer

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# 688749 20-Sep-2012 12:14

DonGould:
BraaiGuy:
DonGould:
networkn: I am not in the least bit concerned the message it sends, whilst they are on a benefit at the expense of the tax payer, and they are not acting responsibly, then they can be offended all they like, or opt out of receiving a benefit.

My sister in law was married and is now on the DPB, bringing up a 6 year old on her own with no help from the father. It's not her fault. Is this the message you'd send to her?

The father is still responsible for his kid no matter what. Its sad that he has taken the no care attitude. It seems to be the done thing these days with many dads in NZ.

Personally I'm torn, very torn.

On one hand I couldn't agree with you more. I really just couldn't agree with you more.

Every weekend I have the opportunity to spend the day riding in this...

Seems cool ea?!

One of these looks cool to me as well!!! How about you?

However in both cases I choose not to while I've got a son who can't look after himself and depends on his mother and I.

Sadly the same can't be said for the guy riding the bike in the photo above, her husband.

But read the article... http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/hutt-valley/6805202/Killed-biker-a-clown-with-big-heart

The guy was on a charity ride raising funds for St Johns and was a profession bike rider for 10 years (working for New Zealand Police).

He wasn't speeding down a back country road, piss as a nute or flying high on drugs while his kid starves.

My Point

But my point was that we shouldn't be judging DPB mums and imposing blanket conditions on them because of others.

Many of these parents are in the position they're in because of situations beyond their control, truly beyond their control.

As a state, we need to focus carefully on fixing problems with very soft hands and not making rash political gestures which make voters rise up in excitement but drive people who's choice is taken away, into the ground.

Sad story. Really sorry! I must admit I jumped the gun and just presumed he was just like some of the dads I know that just don't care. My apologies..

networkn

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# 688750 20-Sep-2012 12:14

As a state, we need to focus carefully on fixing problems with very soft hands and not making rash political gestures which make voters rise up in excitement but drive people who's choice is taken away, into the ground.

I am really struggling to follow your logic, or even the path you have taken to get to your point!

I don't understand how insisting that your sister spent a portion of her "income" on food for her and her kids, could possibly offend her, she should be doing it anyway, and therefore she won't be bothered at all and if she isn't, well I could care less about her hurt feelings on the matter. I can't see how anything I've suggested puts her into the ground. I think you need to worry less about feelings and more about realities and long term benefits.

DonGould

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# 688754 20-Sep-2012 12:21

BraaiGuy: Sad story. Really sorry! I must admit I jumped the gun and just presumed he was just like some of the dads I know that just don't care. My apologies..

No, not at all, you don't need to apologise at all.

I didn't present the details of her situation in full. I simply cheery picked the bits that were relevant to the point I was discussing with respect to benefit cards.

Yes, you did jump the gun, but that's more than ok.

In many cases your assumptions would also be correct and ok.

My point is simply that we need to be very careful not to put hardship on those who really don't deserve it while attempting to address problems.

Blanket benefit cards are not going to help my sister in law. She can and does budget very well.

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networkn

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# 688759 20-Sep-2012 12:26

DonGould:
BraaiGuy: Sad story. Really sorry! I must admit I jumped the gun and just presumed he was just like some of the dads I know that just don't care. My apologies..

No, not at all, you don't need to apologise at all.

I didn't present the details of her situation in full. I simply cheery picked the bits that were relevant to the point I was discussing with respect to benefit cards.

Yes, you did jump the gun, but that's more than ok.

In many cases your assumptions would also be correct and ok.

My point is simply that we need to be very careful not to put hardship on those who really don't deserve it while attempting to address problems.

Blanket benefit cards are not going to help my sister in law. She can and does budget very well.

Yup I am sorry for your loss, it's exceptionally unfortunate. Your sister will likely be on a benefit in the short term and is meeting her obligations, so the changes won't affect or offend her, but they will benefit the families who are struggling with prioritizing and budgeting, even if they don't want it.

Byrned

453 posts

Ultimate Geek

# 688760 20-Sep-2012 12:37

DonGould:
BraaiGuy: Sad story. Really sorry! I must admit I jumped the gun and just presumed he was just like some of the dads I know that just don't care. My apologies..

No, not at all, you don't need to apologise at all.

I didn't present the details of her situation in full. I simply cheery picked the bits that were relevant to the point I was discussing with respect to benefit cards.

Yes, you did jump the gun, but that's more than ok.

In many cases your assumptions would also be correct and ok.

My point is simply that we need to be very careful not to put hardship on those who really don't deserve it while attempting to address problems.

Blanket benefit cards are not going to help my sister in law. She can and does budget very well.

Thats great that she can and does budget well. I'm assuming that her child gets 3 meals a day? And if she can do it, why can't others? Thats the point that I'm trying to make.

The financial resources (in most cases) are already there. I'll agree that there are cracks that people slip through and it's for that reason that nothing can ever be black and white. But there is also a responsibility making sure people know how to use there money.

I actually believe we trap people into poverty by not teaching them how to be smart with money and just give them more.

DonGould

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# 688761 20-Sep-2012 12:38

networkn:

I am really struggling to follow your logic, or even the path you have taken to get to your point!

I don't understand how insisting that your sister spent a portion of her "income" on food for her and her kids, could possibly offend her, she should be doing it anyway, and therefore she won't be bothered at all and if she isn't, well I could care less about her hurt feelings on the matter. I can't see how anything I've suggested puts her into the ground. I think you need to worry less about feelings and more about realities and long term benefits.

Ok, clearly you didn't read my post on income supplementation.

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=48&topicid=109321&page_no=7#688487

You're assuming that she needs to spend any of the $130 a week she has left after rent on food at the supermarket.

I also question, for mothers like her, will a plastic card carry a social stigma?

Will the card tell the story of her situation as I've presented it here or will be just automatically be judged as others here proved they may do with out giving thought?

Will our community look on these cards with soft hands and a warm heart or a sense that it's needed so she doesn't just blow her benefit on drugs, smokes and grog?

I know I wouldn't want to be pulling out a green plastic card at the super market check out.

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networkn

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# 688767 20-Sep-2012 12:46

DonGould: networkn:

Will our community look on these cards with soft hands and a warm heart or a sense that it's needed so she doesn't just blow her benefit on drugs, smokes and grog?

I know I wouldn't want to be pulling out a green plastic card at the super market check out.

I see what you are saying, but I consider it a small price to pay for getting financial assistance and for the overall benefit to Kiwis on benefits who can't or won't budget properly. There is no way to solve the problem and not upset someone and I guess as a country we need to look for what is best for the majority. Your sister has you, and your family to help her through what I can only imagine is a terrible time, and she can use this to balance any downside to the forced budgeting. I would imagine that if she was compelled to attend and was doing a good job, then she would be given positive feedback.

I think however we aren't really addressing the OP, and suspect this latest branch of discussion could easily have a thread of it's own.

Byrned

453 posts

Ultimate Geek

# 688768 20-Sep-2012 12:48

DonGould:
networkn:

I am really struggling to follow your logic, or even the path you have taken to get to your point!

I don't understand how insisting that your sister spent a portion of her "income" on food for her and her kids, could possibly offend her, she should be doing it anyway, and therefore she won't be bothered at all and if she isn't, well I could care less about her hurt feelings on the matter. I can't see how anything I've suggested puts her into the ground. I think you need to worry less about feelings and more about realities and long term benefits.

Ok, clearly you didn't read my post on income supplementation.

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=48&topicid=109321&page_no=7#688487

You're assuming that she needs to spend any of the $130 a week she has left after rent on food at the supermarket.

I also question, for mothers like her, will a plastic card carry a social stigma?

Will the card tell the story of her situation as I've presented it here or will be just automatically be judged as others here proved they may do with out giving thought?

Will our community look on these cards with soft hands and a warm heart or a sense that it's needed so she doesn't just blow her benefit on drugs, smokes and grog?

I know I wouldn't want to be pulling out a green plastic card at the super market check out.

Following your logic about a plastic card holding a social stigmata against beneficiaries, I'm assuming your advocating the removal of the community services card or the super gold card? Its a freaking card that gives you food. Build a bridge, take a drive and get over it.

Klipspringer

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# 688781 20-Sep-2012 13:06

DonGould:
My point is simply that we need to be very careful not to put hardship on those who really don't deserve it while attempting to address problems.
Blanket benefit cards are not going to help my sister in law. She can and does budget very well.

I think it depends how you look at it. In a time of hardship, ie lack of income or no income, then its going to benefit. I think we need to change our way of thinking, the benefit should never be seen as a permanent arrangement. Isn’t the idea to get the people off the benefit?

Byrned:
I actually believe we trap people into poverty by not teaching them how to be smart with money and just give them more.

This is so true. Some simple calculations would probably prove that the income being received by some beneficiaries will never be low enough to force the family into so called poverty. The so called poverty is driven by bad budgeting, and priorities. Unfortunately the kids are the most affected in most of these cases due to the parents spending on their own personal priorities. So even if we raised the money, I don’t believe it will change anything.

Its a bit like getting a raise at work. In most cases we raise our standard of living, people still live pay cheque to pay cheque. There are many people out their that are not on the benefit, earning decent salaries, and have kids who are also living in so called poverty. This problem is not limited to only those on the benefit.

DonGould:
You're assuming that she needs to spend any of the $130 a week she has left after rent on food at the supermarket.

I also question, for mothers like her, will a plastic card carry a social stigma?

Will the card tell the story of her situation as I've presented it here or will be just automatically be judged as others here proved they may do with out giving thought?

Will our community look on these cards with soft hands and a warm heart or a sense that it's needed so she doesn't just blow her benefit on drugs, smokes and grog?

I know I wouldn't want to be pulling out a green plastic card at the super market check out.

Personally I don’t care if it carries a “social stigma”. In the UK for example, people on the benefit are mostly frowned upon. But here it seems to be OK, even a drive my many to get onto it! There does not seem to be much motivation for many to get off it. Maybe the social stigma attached to it is a good thing, and it will motivate people to work their way out of it?

It does not really matter why someone is on the benefit. What matters is that they should be finding alternatives, and instead of using it as a given, rather using it as a last resort when all else has failed.

oxnsox

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# 688819 20-Sep-2012 13:54

The digression of this thread highlights 2 things to me.
1. There is no solution to this issue that everyone will agree on
2. It's easy to settle on stereotypes for beneficiaries, but the reality is they all have their own story

As for the premise that we somehow lose (some) mana if we're seen to be accepting of state funded charity, thats a red herring (or green card). If you value your dignity this doesn't have to be the case. But if you have the time to worry about someone else's mana on behalf of them and others, who really has an issue?

DonGould

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# 688854 20-Sep-2012 14:26

oxnsox: The digression of this thread highlights 2 things to me.
1. There is no solution to this issue that everyone will agree on
2. It's easy to settle on stereotypes for beneficiaries, but the reality is they all have their own story

I agree with both of those statements.

For 1 - I think the issues need a range of solutions so there is one for each case in 2.

oxnsox:
As for the premise that we somehow lose (some) mana if we're seen to be accepting of state funded charity, thats a red herring (or green card). If you value your dignity this doesn't have to be the case. But if you have the time to worry about someone else's mana on behalf of them and others, who really has an issue?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

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DonGould

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# 688855 20-Sep-2012 14:28

BraaiGuy: In the UK for example,

My observation of the UK via the media is that social issues have got to the point of riot - London 2012.

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