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  Reply # 741100 7-Jan-2013 15:00
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Journeyman: Wow, some real high and mighty geeks here...

I think qwerty7's point when he admitted he was over the limit himself was that he acknowledges he's no angel. What he's asking (I think) is 'why do the people who uphold the speeding law break that same law themselves'. Lots of snide replies followed, accusations of hypocrisy etc. Jeez people, calm down.

I don't have a problem with cops doing up to, say, 60kmh without lights and sirens on, as long as there is a good reason for it. Otoh, I would hope that cops would be reasonable about pulling people over for doing 50k+ and that they'd base it on the circumstances. Eg, doing 55kmh in a deserted industrial zone late at night is different from doing 55kmh in a suburban area in the afternoon. Different risk factors there.


Anyway... what I really wanted to say is that you can always complain - or even query - a police officer's behaviour directly with the police themselves. If you don't trust them to investigate their own, go to the IPCA. They have to take every complaint seriously. Case in point - I was turning off the motorway one night and some car barrelled up behind me, sat on my bumper and as soon as the offramp split into two lanes, it caned past me - very close by. That's dickish behaviour from anybody, but as I got to the traffic lights I was pretty surprised to see that there was a cop driving the car! So I emailed the IPCA and said (paraphrasing) "look, I'm not looking to make a big deal but this is pretty dodgy driving from a cop and I'd like it looked into." The end result was a letter from the police explaining that the officer had an unruly fellow in the back seat and was trying to get back to the station as quick as possible and using lights and sirens would have further agitated him. Hey, you know what? Sweet as! I could take it one of two ways - either it's a BS excuse for being a mong, or it's a perfectly legit explanation and I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt (I took the second pov, btw). I still think it's dickish to tailgate someone who is obeying the law, but I accept that sh.t happens in trying circumstances and so as far as I'm concerned, it's all sorted.

I fully expect now that some geeks will sit astride their high horses and lecture me and tell me that the incredible driving skills allow cops to tailgate people and hoon around them and how dare I question the police and I must therefore be anti-police etc. But hey, ya know what? That's the great thing about living in a democratic nation - you get to question the actions of authorities when you don't think they're doing their job. That should not be discouraged.

Great comment. At the start of the thread I thought police had to have lights and or sirens when breaking the speed for a reason. Looks like I am wrong. I estimated this cop was doing about 63 using the figure on my speedo and the rate of increasing distance between us. I have no intention of making a formal complaint or such, the road was empty, long straight and before 8 in the morning. It simply made me question why should I as a citizen be able to be ticketed for doing 56 km/h in a 50. If I got a ticket for doing 56 km/h in a 50 I would not be too happy as I know almost for a fact that the officer has probably reached 56 km/h in a 50 k zone himself within the last 24 hours without any real reason apart from speed variance, nobody can keep their speedo bang on 50 and not go a km over all the time. I also hope that no cop or citizen continually drives 10 km/h over the posted speed limit.

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  Reply # 741170 7-Jan-2013 16:33
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qwerty7: in police uniform 

Now things make more sense - why did you decide to leave out this piece of information until page 4 of the thread?

The reason I suggested you had no idea who was driving was because of the lack of this information - I take it you realise it's not only cops who drive cop cars?

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 741178 7-Jan-2013 16:44
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Journeyman: I fully expect now that some geeks will sit astride their high horses and lecture me and tell me that the incredible driving skills allow cops to tailgate people and hoon around...

Heh - very few people in this world have incredible driving skills. Trust me, police training is pretty basic. Some cops I know are crap drivers.

You're absolutely correct - tailgating is dickish, not to mention downright irresponsible if there's an agitated person in the back seat. I know a cop who crashed their car (albeit low speed) after an agitated person in the back kicked out and connected with the drivers head, knocking them unconscious. I hate to think what the consequences might have been if that had happened in a high speed area.

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  Reply # 741181 7-Jan-2013 16:53
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Journeyman: Thanks kingjj. I agree, the IPCA is busy and minor issues probably should be referred to the police. I guess I'm a bit cynical about police investigating their own, though. It'd be interesting to know if anyone here has experience with doing that.

Ultimately, the reason I went to the IPCA is because of this on their website:

The Authority independently investigates very serious cases, such as those involving fatality or an allegation of serious misconduct.

The Authority may also independently investigate incidents in which there is a significant public interest in having an independent investigation ? for example, an allegation against a senior Police officer.

Other complaints ? the majority ? are referred to the Police for investigation and resolution under the Authority?s oversight.


So I knew it would be passed straight to the police but they would then have to answer to the IPCA as well as me.


I can see your reasoning is sound and it worked out for the best! My comment wasn't targeted at you personally, more just a generalised narrative on how the system works. The IPCA has pretty strict criteria that must be meet for them to investigate, most complaints are referred straight back to the Police or to lawyers (for the "they arrested me but I told them I didn't do it" type complaints...).

For once I actually agree with the general tone of a NZHerald article (Cops on the Wrong Side of the Law, 07/01/12, online) when they quoted Greg O'Connor:

"Police Association president Greg O'Connor said the figures clearly showed that police don't look after their own - in fact they do the opposite.

"If there were no police officers being arrested and charged ever, I think the public would have rightfully more concern that there was covering up.

"No one who has had anything to do with police - particularly lawyers who look after police officers - would ever say anything other than they're absolutely and utterly thorough."


The New Zealand Police aren't perfect, but they are working hard to live up to the public's expectations. They are only human however and like everyone they make mistakes or push their luck once too often. According to recent public polls (excluding one dubious poll that gets quoted a bit at present) trust in the Police has been growing year on year since the dawn of the Millennium, and hopefully it will continue. For that trust to continue to grow, Police need to show that they are no longer an "old boys club" and are confident and justified in their actions.

Thanks for an interesting debate qwerty7.

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  Reply # 741260 7-Jan-2013 19:50
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qwerty7:
Journeyman: ..deleted...discouraged.

Great comment. At the start of the thread I thought police had to have lights and or sirens when breaking the speed for a reason. Looks like I am wrong. I estimated this cop was doing about 63 using the figure on my speedo and the rate of increasing distance between us. I have no intention of making a formal complaint or such, the road was empty, long straight and before 8 in the morning. It simply made me question why should I as a citizen be able to be ticketed for doing 56 km/h in a 50. If I got a ticket for doing 56 km/h in a 50 I would not be too happy as I know almost for a fact that the officer has probably reached 56 km/h in a 50 k zone himself within the last 24 hours without any real reason apart from speed variance, nobody can keep their speedo bang on 50 and not go a km over all the time. I also hope that no cop or citizen continually drives 10 km/h over the posted speed limit.


The essence of you question seems to by why cops can break the speed limit if they are not going to a job and you cant.

Cops cant break the speed without a defence, ie urgent duty, and if they get caught (and they do get caught both by speed cameras and other cops (yes its true, cops do ticket cops)) they get a ticket - just the same as you get a ticket. So to answer you question, no cops are no different to you.





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  Reply # 741329 7-Jan-2013 22:45
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Dratsab:
qwerty7: in police uniform 

Now things make more sense - why did you decide to leave out this piece of information until page 4 of the thread?

The reason I suggested you had no idea who was driving was because of the lack of this information - I take it you realise it's not only cops who drive cop cars?

oh ffs why do you have to question what i saw the thread title reads 'Followed a cop doing 63'. Unless you were there too and have reason to doubt it was a cop I see no need why you have to question if it was or not. It has nothing to do with the topic and is a waste of thread space. 



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  Reply # 741330 7-Jan-2013 22:47
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bigal_nz:
qwerty7:
Journeyman: ..deleted...discouraged.

Great comment. At the start of the thread I thought police had to have lights and or sirens when breaking the speed for a reason. Looks like I am wrong. I estimated this cop was doing about 63 using the figure on my speedo and the rate of increasing distance between us. I have no intention of making a formal complaint or such, the road was empty, long straight and before 8 in the morning. It simply made me question why should I as a citizen be able to be ticketed for doing 56 km/h in a 50. If I got a ticket for doing 56 km/h in a 50 I would not be too happy as I know almost for a fact that the officer has probably reached 56 km/h in a 50 k zone himself within the last 24 hours without any real reason apart from speed variance, nobody can keep their speedo bang on 50 and not go a km over all the time. I also hope that no cop or citizen continually drives 10 km/h over the posted speed limit.


The essence of you question seems to by why cops can break the speed limit if they are not going to a job and you cant.

Cops cant break the speed without a defence, ie urgent duty, and if they get caught (and they do get caught both by speed cameras and other cops (yes its true, cops do ticket cops)) they get a ticket - just the same as you get a ticket. So to answer you question, no cops are no different to you.



Yeap this sums the whole thing up. I just don't like the hypocritic factor. If I got a ticket for doing 56 I would be thinking 'come on mate you were probably doing that yourself a few minutes ago'. 

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  Reply # 741416 8-Jan-2013 09:37
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qwerty7:
Dratsab:
qwerty7: in police uniform 

Now things make more sense - why did you decide to leave out this piece of information until page 4 of the thread?

The reason I suggested you had no idea who was driving was because of the lack of this information - I take it you realise it's not only cops who drive cop cars?

oh ffs why do you have to question what i saw the thread title reads 'Followed a cop doing 63'. Unless you were there too and have reason to doubt it was a cop I see no need why you have to question if it was or not. It has nothing to do with the topic and is a waste of thread space. 


Because we need FACTS. You mentioned cop but the only thing you wrote about identification was "cop car". You never said you say a uniformed police officer in the car.

If people can't come with all facts about something how are we supposed to know? Crystal ball doesn't work here.

Also, it's important to have all facts upfront otherwise it just looks like a story that keeps changing.







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  Reply # 741612 8-Jan-2013 13:38
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qwerty7: 
Yeap this sums the whole thing up. I just don't like the hypocritic factor. If I got a ticket for doing 56 I would be thinking 'come on mate you were probably doing that yourself a few minutes ago'. 


Yes, I smell hypocracy in both arguments.......


Perhaps rename the thread to "I followed a cop doing 63 and I didnt get a ticket"

Then you can put a positive spin on the event and suggest that Police discretionary actions allowed you to speed without being punished :-)

Its hypocritical if it happened. It didnt.



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  Reply # 741620 8-Jan-2013 13:56
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SpookyAwol:
qwerty7: 
Yeap this sums the whole thing up. I just don't like the hypocritic factor. If I got a ticket for doing 56 I would be thinking 'come on mate you were probably doing that yourself a few minutes ago'. 


Yes, I smell hypocracy in both arguments.......


Perhaps rename the thread to "I followed a cop doing 63 and I didnt get a ticket"

Then you can put a positive spin on the event and suggest that Police discretionary actions allowed you to speed without being punished :-)

Its hypocritical if it happened. It didnt.




Haha - thats actually a great way to look at it. Neither of you got a ticket, so what is the problem again?

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  Reply # 741632 8-Jan-2013 14:05
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I think he really just wanted to have an adult conversation, that's all.

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  Reply # 741820 8-Jan-2013 18:17
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And he did. He got people from both sides - supporting his opinion and against his opinion. This is an adult conversation.




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  Reply # 741880 8-Jan-2013 19:51
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I dunno man, some replies look a little juvenile.

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  Reply # 741883 8-Jan-2013 19:55
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Do not.

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  Reply # 741918 8-Jan-2013 20:50
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:P

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